建筑系事务所访谈：树立一种新泰国建筑观

主持：洪人杰，Kulthida Songkittipakdee / Host: Jenchieh Hung, Kulthida Songkittipakdee

对谈：Amata Luphaiboon，Twitee Vajrabhaya Teparkum 泰国建筑系事务所主持建筑师/ Interview: Amata Luphaiboon，Twitee Vajrabhaya Teparkum; Principal Architect of Department of ARCHITECTURE, Thailand

记录：中泰建筑研究室/ Transcript: Chinese-Thai Research Studio

洪：我最早得知Department of ARCHITECTURE是十年前在杂志上看到普吉岛莎拉度假酒店（Sala Phuket Resort），而后该项目获得泰国暹罗建筑师协会（Association of Siamese Architects, ASA）奖项。接着近十年时间您不将事务所定位在酒店项目上，相反完成一系列不同类型作品，如SunOne集团总部（SunOne）、邦盛海滩多功能亭（The Flow Pavilion）、The Commons商场（The Commons）、泰国创意与设计中心（Thailand Creative and Design Center），因此我更感兴趣的是当事务所被业主定位成酒店专家时，您是如何成功转型的（图1）？

Hung: I firstly knew the Department of ARCHITECTURE from the Sala Phuket Resort in a magazine ten years ago, and the project won an award of the Association of Siamese Architects(ASA). Ten years later, you do not position the firm on the hotel project. Instead, you have completed a series of different types of works, such as SunOne, The Flow Pavilion, The Commons, Thailand Creative and Design Center, so l am more interested in the office transition.How did you successfully transform your position which do not act as a hotel expert by the client expectation (Picture 1)?

Amata：这个话题大概要回到二十多年前，我与合伙人Twitee一起于Metric事务所任职，那个时候我们作为主持建筑师完成苏梅岛六善酒店（Six Senses Samui Resort），该项目让我们获得第一个ASA建筑金奖，业主也开始将我们定位为酒店设计专家。但是，身为建筑师的我们不想将自己放进盒子中，我们想突破束缚，想尝试相异类型项目，想勇于挑战并创新，因此我们成立Department of ARCHITECTURE事务所，并在十五年中累积多元的经验。

Amata: More than 20 years ago, I worked with my partner Twitee at Metric.At that time, we completed Six Senses Samui Resort as the project architect. This project gave us the first ASA Gold Award, and the client also started positioning us as a hotel design expert. However, as an architect, we don't want to put ourselves in the box. We want to break through it, try different types of projects, and want to be challenged and innovated. So we set up the Department of ARCHITECTURE and accumulated in fifteen yearswith diverse experience.

Kulthida：很多事务所为了运营而接商业项目，之后却遭遇定型的窘境，只能持续做商业项目。当您们完成普吉岛莎拉度假酒店后，您是如何在被定型后又成功转型做其他项目？

Kulthida: Many firms commit the commercial projects in order to running their operation,but then they encounter a stereotyped situation, and can only continue to do the commercial projects. After you completed Sala Phuket Resort, how did you successfully transform and do other projects later?

Amata：我想先从“人员”的角度来说──最早我们只有四个人，几年后以等比增加的速度，我们有意图地让人数与项目都控制在一个有机成长的状态，直到现在较具规模的35人；事实上我们无法控制项目的扩张，但却可以控制公司的人数，当我们用最精简的人员来完成项目，便逐渐累积经验与能力，进而有更大的信心可以“挑选”项目。再来从“时间”的角度来说──当我们这几年没有承接酒店项目时，我们有更多心力投注在室内、办公、餐厅和商业项目上（图2），这几年我们更渴望承接从建筑到室内的项目，完整并串连从业主、运营、设计到施工整个系统。最后从“运气”的角度来说──当我们拒绝项目时，我们更积极付出也更热情投入在每个项目上，很幸运地这几年我们获得许多国内外等奖项，尤其是泰国ASA奖项，肯定我们在许多项目的实践与成就。

Amata: I want to start with the "personnel" point of view - the earliest we had only four people. After afew years, at an increasing rate, we intend to keep the number of people and projects in an organically growing. Thirty-five people in size; in fact, we can't control the expansion of the project, but we can control the number of companies. When we use the most streamlined personnel to complete the project, we gradually accumulate experience and ability, and then have greater confidence to “pick”project. From the perspective of "time" - when we did not undertake hotel projects in the past few years,we have more efforts to work on interior, office, restaurant and commercial projects(Picture 2). In recent years, we are more eager to undertake from architecture to interior. The project is completed and serialized from the client, operation, and design to construction of the entire system. Finally, from the perspective of “luck” - when we refused the project, we were more active and enthusiastic about each project. Fortunately, we are lucky to win many international and domestic awards, especially the ASA award, which allows us to prove our ability to do any project.

图1，普吉岛莎拉度假酒店╱Sala Phuket Resort（摄影╱Photo：W Workspace）

图2，芭堤雅希尔顿酒店╱Hilton Pattaya（摄影╱Photo：W Workspace）

洪：当项目进行时，您是如何说服业主？当事务所成名后，是否能掌握设计话语权？

Hung: How do you convince the client when the project is going on? After the firm became famous, can you control all the design?

Amata：十五年前我35岁，那时候很年轻，现在我已经50岁，所以我当年碰到的业主都比我老。但是我一直觉得要让业主信任并不是这么困难，因为我们总是做到最好，并且保证业主可以从我们的眼神中知道我们在他们项目上的热情。当我们碰到业主很有想法的告诉我们，他想做有想法的商业和办公项目时，他的热情也会影响我们，促使我有创新的勇气；同时我们会做很多设计研究，以满足我们不同方案的效果，甚至也会做动画、手工模型、效果图等，我们会尽力做到每一个细小的环节，让业主们都可以清楚了解。因此，业主就会知道我们是真的很认真的在做项目，同时我们也会与业主说明中间研究过程，并在汇报中将建筑与室内关系做出详细说明与后续发展，业主就会知道我们了解全部的过程，是一个很完整、很大量的研究结果，并且具有极大的热情向他们展示成果（图3）。现在，十多年过去了，我也有代表作品，业主知道我们的设计水平后，更容易与业主沟通与交流；现在的业主对我们更了解，我们有更多机会可以展现我们的设计能力。但是，我们希望提供更多的可能性，研究并创新前所未有的设计方案；即便新的东西总是很难被人接受，但是我们会做的更好、更认真投入，让业主知道我们对于设计的热情与勇气。另外一方面，因为业主信任我们，所以我们也有更长远的目标，希望每个项目都比之前项目更推进一些、更具挑战性一些，这也是事务所进步以及取得业主信任的原因（图4）。

Amata: Fifteen years ago I was thirty-five years old, very young at that time, now I am fifty years old, so I had met the client are older than me, but I always think to let client trust us are not so difficult, because we always do our best, and I'm sure the client can know from our eyes our passion on their projects. If I don't have passion in the project, I will not undertake whether it is an office or business project. However, I do not mean that the office or commercial projects are not connected. I mean if the client tells me that he wants to do business or office projects with some ideas, his enthusiasm will also affect us, prompting me to have the courage to innovate. At the same time,we will do a lot of design research, these results are very distinctive, and in order to meet the effect of our different characteristics of the program, we will even do animation, physical model, effective diagram, we try to do any supplemental materials to express the design, so that the clients of different designs can also clearly understand.This way, the client will know we are really serious in doing something, but we not only show the design results, we will also study among process with the vendor, the contractor and interior interface in briefing could elaborate and development. The clients generally know a building direction, and can know that kind of real materials, texture, indoor space, the client will know that we know all the process, is a very full, very large number of research results, and has a great enthusiasm to like their present achievements (Picture 3). Now more than ten years have passed, we also have several representative works, the clients also know our design level, so it is easier to convince the clients. Now the clients know us better, we have more opportunities to show our design ability, but we will pursue to provide more solutions to the clients, to study unprecedented solutions and our innovative design that has never been done before.But new things will always be questioned by the clients, so we still do more and better, more serious investment, let the clients know our passion and courage for design. At the same time, because the clients trust us, we also have a longer term goal, hoping to make each project more advanced and more challenging than the previous projects, which is also the reason for the progress of the firm and the trust of the clients (Picture 4).

图3，鄢陵建业花满地温泉酒店╱MIST Hot Spring Hotel（摄影╱Photo：W Workspace）

图4，Little Shelter酒店/ Little Shelter Hotel（摄影/ Photo: W Workspace）

洪：当外国业主委托您们项目时，是否期待在您们设计里看到泰国性（Thainess）痕迹？

Hung: When foreign clients entrust you with projects, do you expect to see Thai-ness in your designs?

Amata：业主找上我们多半是看过我们的作品，他们认为我们的作品很巧妙的将地域关系展现在建筑风格上，而这些业主都会让我们发挥个人创意，而非单一风格。在我们设计中场地扮演重要的角色，然而身为泰国建筑师，我们的设计也会自然而然体现“泰国性”痕迹，但并非刻意的。有些项目因为气候因素、地理条件、历史人文等因素需要呈现泰国性痕迹，如我们设计的大城Trusoul度假酒店（Trusoul Resort Ayutthaya）；但有些项目的泰国性表达则可以透过材料、构筑或自然环境来呈现，如中国的鄢陵建业花满地温泉酒店（MIST Hot Spring Hotel）、印度尼西亚的巴利岛高尔夫度假酒店（Bali Golf Resort）以及约旦的Ayla 海滩会所（Ayla Beach Club）。我们从未刻意的寻求某种设计意图，仅单纯希望让人可以感受到好的建筑或空间，那就足够了。

Amata: Most of the clients have seen our works, and they think that our works skillfully show the regional relationship in the architectural style, and the clients will let us play the contemporary architectural style. In our creation, it actually depends more on the site relationship. If the Thai design is not needed, why should we put it in? However, as a Thai architect, my design naturally reflects the traces of Thai nature, but this is not intentional; some projects may need Thai traces, such as our Trusoul Resort Ayutthaya, but the depth of Thai design depends on how much I want to put in, perhaps through the decorative elements expressed by materials, patterns or light, but in any case it is through the study of natural orientation to that trend. On the other hand, we have many overseas projects,such as MIST Hot Spring Hotel in China, Bali Golf Resort in Indonesia, Ayla Beach Club in Jordan and Manila project, we have never had a preconceived design strategy, we do not need to talk loudly about Thai nature, Thai architects, we hope the work can make people feel good, that is enough.

洪：海外业主是如何发现Department of ARCHITECTURE？

Hung: How can foreign clients find the Department of ARCHlTECTURE?

Amata：我们有一部分作品发表于国外互连网上，但我们不知道哪个网站是大众关注的，或许有些业主看到ArchDaily、Archtizer，也有部分从Dezeen或谷德设计网…等。当这些海外业主已经知道我们的项目时，如普吉岛莎拉度假酒店、芭堤雅希尔顿酒店（Hilton Pattaya）、The Commons商场时，我会给他们看其他类型的作品，让他们知道我们的实践类型很多元，没有任何类型的限制。业主也会发现，我们的设计不仅独特，还具有创新的能力；因为当我们自己都不会抄袭自己的作品时，业主就会了解我们更不可能抄袭别人作品（图5）。

Amata: Some of our works have been published via foreign medias, but we don't know which website is popular, maybe some clients see ArchDaily, Archtizer, and some from Dezeen or gooood...etc.When these overseas clients already know about our projects, such as Sala Phuket Resort, Hilton Pattaya, The Commons, I will show them other types of works, let them know that our practice types are varieties, without any type of restrictions. Clients will also find that our designs are not only unique but also innovative; because when we do not copy our own work, the clients know that we are less likely to copy other people’s works(Picture 5).

Kulthida：在这十五年中，Department of ARCHITECTURE是否累积自我的建筑哲学观与关键词？

Kulthida: During these fifteen years, did the Department of ARCHlTECTURE accumulate selfbuilding philosophy and keywords?

Amata：我们没有刻意的哲学观，但或许随着实践项目的增加自然而然地产生连续性。我们尽量避免意图性的风格，因为风格就像签名，不管您在什么纸上签名都会呈现相似的结果。实际上，我们想写一本书，这本书会呈现非常精彩的故事，若故事需要更情绪化，我们会试着置入我们的情感，甚至会用手写的方式来完成这本书，引发读者极致和丰富的感受，因此每个项目我们都会思考要写怎么样的故事，而非千篇一律的文字和签名。回到设计操作上，我们并没有标准化的风格来执行项目，在每个项目我们会试着研究场地，或许这个项目需要丰富的色彩、或许那个项目需要纯朴的材料，这些取决于怎么样的故事，我们也试着写一本独一无二的剧情，引发人了解这个场所与建筑（图6）。

Amata: We don't have a deliberate philosophical view, but it may naturally create continuity as the number of practical projects increases. We try to avoid intent styles, because styles are like signatures, and no matter what paper you sign on, they will show similar results. In fact, we want to write a book, this book will present a very wonderful story, if the story needs to be more emotional, we will try to put our emotions, and even use handwritten way to complete the book, trigger the readers are extremely and rich in feelings, so every project we will think about what kind of story to write, not the same text and signature. Back to the design operation, we don't have a standardized style to execute the project. In each project, we will try to study the site context. Perhaps the project needs rich colors, maybe the project needs simple materials, depending on the story. We also tried to write a unique story that triggered people to understand the place and architecture (Picture 6).

Twitee：至于关键词我们认为是自然而然地！但不管是建筑项目、室内项目或景观项目，我们都会试着用建筑的方式来呈现，而结果往往让空间场所达到Total-ness（一体化）的效果；而下一步我们会更关注它是怎样被人感受，它是怎么被人看？因为建筑总是离不开人的参与和介入（图7）。当今，明星建筑师不希望自己的建筑看起来很美，他们认为好的建筑或是美的建筑看起来不够酷，一定要看起来很奇怪或是难让人理解的，但上述这些却完全与我们无关。我们不只从建筑师角度出发让建筑看起来是美的，我们还希望让一般大众也能感受到美，因为一般民众无法感受到空间的流动性、透明性，但最少他们可以感受到好和美的事物。

Twitee: As for the keywords, we think is natural but whether it is a construction project, an interior project or a landscape project, we will try to present it in a building way, and the result will often make the space place reach the effect of total-ness; and in the next step we will pay more attention to how it is felt, how it is seen. Because architecture is always inseparable from human participation and involvement (Picture 7). Today, star architects don't want their buildings to look beautiful. They think that good buildings or beautiful buildings don't look cool enough. They must look strange or difficult to understand, but these are completely different from us. We not only make the building look beautiful from the perspective of the architect, we also hope that the normal people can also feel the beauty, because they cannot feel the mobility and transparency of the space, but at least they can feel the good and beautiful things.

图5，The Commons商场/ The Commons（摄影/ Photo：W Workspace）

图6，泰国创意与设计中心/ Thailand Creative and Design Center（摄影/ Photo: W Workspace）

洪：泰国建筑师正在兴起，是什么原因呢？

Hung: What is the reason that Thai architects are raising up?

Amata：我认为是泰国人的性格，我想到之前有一个新加坡业主找上我们。我问他为什么找泰国建筑师，即便是泰国业主也会去找新加坡建筑师？他说泰国建筑师不同，您们对于美学有一种自然而然的天性感知。我想他是对的，不仅是建筑而已，对于其他设计也是（图8）。我们不像日本人对于美学是理性、直白、外向的；泰国对于设计有一种天份，一种自然和自由的想法，这点不仅表达在建筑与设计中，更表达在个性、食物与社会之中。

Amata: I think it is the character of the Thai people. There was a Singaporean client who came to us. I asked him why he was looking for a Thai architect. Even a Thai client would go to a Singaporean architect.He said that Thai architects are different, and you have a natural perception of aesthetics. I think he is right,not only for architecture, but for other designs as well (Picture 8). We are not like the Japanese are rational,straightforward and extroverted to aesthetics; Thailand has a talent, a natural and free idea for design,which is not only expressed in architecture and design, but also in personality, food and society.

洪：泰国建筑正走往哪条道路上？

Amata：非常精彩，非常棒的道路！十五年前当我们开始事务所时，那是一个百家争鸣的时代，那时候建筑风格还不像当下这么现代，更多的是在“重释“泰国建筑。我并非是第一个开始抽象演绎泰国当代建筑，但我可以说我是第一批开始的建筑师。我们这代的实践方式承接了前几代的前辈的思想，但又走出具有鉴别性的策略，如果要我具体指出这代的创始者的话则是Duangrit Bunnag（DBALP）。另外一方面，十五年前业主和委托单位并不知道什么是有意义性的建筑，那时候好的建筑只会在纸媒书籍上出现，还不像现在互连网这么普遍；但在之后约五年的时间，开始有一批好的泰国建筑师和事务所崛起，有的是我们的前辈也有很多是我们的晚辈，以前可能只能说出二三家代表性事务所，但现在最少可以说出10家，甚至更多！有的40至50岁，有的40至30岁，更有一些是30岁以下，而这些事务所也逐渐成为泰国“中坚“世代的建筑师。

Hung: Which direction is the Thai architecture going on?

Amata: Very good, very excellent! When we started our office fifteen years ago, it was a time of a lot of different ideas, and the architecture was not as modern as it is now, but more about reinterpreting Thai architecture. I wasn't the first architect to do contemporary Thai architecture, but I can say I was one of the first architects to do it. The way our generation practices is built on the ideas of previous generations, but it goes out of the way of discriminating strategies, and if I am going to specify the leader of this generation,it should be Duangrit Bunnag Architect Limited (DBALP), and we've all worked very hard to go with him,to be very close to him. On the other hand, fifteen years ago, the clients and building approval department did not know what a meaningful building was. But after about five years, a number of good Thai architects and firms began to rise, some of them are our predecessors and many of them are our juniors. Before, we could only name two or three representative firms, but now we can say at least ten or more! Some are in their 40s and 50s, some are in their 40s and 30s, and some are under 30 years old, and these firms have gradually become the backbone of Thai architects for next generations.

Twitee：这个现象最主要是互连网与自媒体的出现，让普遍大众了解什么是好的建筑、什么是具意义性的设计，接着当业主和建筑师都了解这个行业标准，就会自然而然地加速行业的成长，是互连网让当代建筑更丰富、更有影响力。现在的业主甚至会说我有多少预算，我要怎么样的现代住宅，不要过多无谓的装饰元素等，这些话是不会在十五年前出现的；当今非常多的泰国事务所有强烈的自我风格与设计手法，并意识性的结合在建筑中。我从未觉得我与这些事务所是在竞争，他们也不觉得与这个群体的其他建筑师在竞争，因为他们各自有强烈的风格，而这也是业主找上他们的原因。

Twitee: This phenomenon is mainly the emergence of the Internet and self-media, let the general public understand what is a good building, what is a meaningful design, then when the clients and architects understand this industry standard, it will naturally accelerate the growth of the industry. It is the Internet that makes contemporary architecture richer and more influential. The current clients will even say how much budget I have, what modern residences I want, not too many unnecessary decorative elements, etc. These words will not appear fifteen years ago; today, a lot of Thai affairs are all strong the self-style and design techniques are combined with the consciousness in the building. I never felt that I was competing with these firms, and they didn't feel competing with other architects in this group because each of them had a strong design, and that was why the clients found them.

洪：可以给中国创业的年轻建筑师一些心得分享吗？

Hung: Can you share some opinions to young architect in China?

Twitee：在开始创业前，我会建议需要在专业的事务所学习和工作几年，因为刚从学校毕业后，作为青年建筑师并不知道建筑是如何真实站起来的。当他们有更多的实务经验与工作历练后，他们会有足够的自信去找到他们自己的价值观，同时他们也会知道什么时候是成熟的时机创业、如何将自己的热情结合设计。另外一方面，要确认自己真的很喜欢建筑，若不确定自己是否喜欢，那要立刻改变职业；因为建筑师是一个非常辛苦的职业，不仅要寻找适合的业主，更要让团队信任，并解决多样复杂的问题。

Twitee: Before starting a business, I would recommend studying and working in a professional firm for a few years. Because after graduating from school, as a young architect, they don't know how the building actually build up. When they have more practical experience and work experience, they will have enough confidence to find their own values, and they will also know when it is time to start a business, how to combine their passions. On the other hand, make sure you really like architecture. If you are not sure you like it, change your career immediately; because the architect is a very hard job, not only to find the right client, but also to let the team trust, and solve a variety of complicated problems.

图7，邦盛海滩多功能亭/ The Flow Pavilion（摄影/ Photo: W Workspace）

图8，Sindhorn住宅/ Sindhorn Residence（摄影/ Photo：W Workspace）