巴宁研究工作室访谈：未来的建筑？

2020-04-03主持洪人杰KulthidaSongkittipakdeeHostJenchiehHungKulthidaSongkittipakdee

世界建筑导报 2020年1期

主持：洪人杰，Kulthida Songkittipakdee / Host: Jenchieh Hung, Kulthida Songkittipakdee

对谈：Tonkao Panin 泰国巴宁研究工作室主持建筑师/ Interview: Tonkao Panin; Principal Architect of Research Studio Panin, Thailand

记录：杨清渊/ Transcript: Chingyuan Yang

洪：您作为泰国最重要的建筑教育家，同时也在泰国艺术大学（Silpakorn University）建筑学系任职全职教授，又作为Research Studio Panin主持建筑师，我很感兴趣您从事建筑的原因（图1、2）。

Hung: You are one of the most important role on architectural education in Thailand. And not only teaching at Silpakorn University, but you also be a principal architect at Research Studio Panin. I wonder why you studied architecture and the reason why you became an architect (Picture 1-2)?

Tonkao：我会读建筑是因为我不知道还有哪些其他专业。事实上，我的母亲是位建筑师同时也在泰国艺术大学任教；而我的父亲则是艺术家，巧合的是他们两人都毕业于泰国艺术大学。在我幼年时期，我受到他们很深的影响，不管是艺术、设计或是相关认知，都逐渐让我走向建筑师这个专业。

Tonkao: I studied architecture because I do not know what else I can do. In fact, my mother is an architect,and my father is an artist, both of them were graduated from Silpakorn University. So I think I have been influenced by them, that why I became an architect.

Kulthida：您完成一系列的住宅作品，并带著不同的地域性实验，您是如何将事务所的研究结合到这些住宅设计的呢？

Kulthida: Most of your projects areprivate houses,I am wondering how you canadapt yourresearches in to those programs and functions?

Tonkao：作为泰国艺术大学全职教授，我也在学校教导学生们进行住宅设计与研究，而我感兴趣的是“当代住宅如何对应气候条件，或著说作为建筑如何从不同地域中获得养分，甚至反应传统文化”。我们从设计原型或单元型态进行新的探讨研究，并将设计作为多样化呈现，重点是如何将地域研究结合到设计中，如：通风遮阳、空间配置…等。如果说设计中有任何先天性的话，那就是我总会将底层架空，创造零散舒适与通风避雨的空间（图3）。

Tonkao: Actually, I have a lot of researchesaccording to my work at the school. It is all about development and transformation of houses, “how a contemporary house would adapt to climatic condition? Or how they would learn from vernacular, and tradition?” I have researched the design typologyof vernacular building and adaptedthe research in to my design projects. I think the way of ventilation and space configuration arethemain part of my researches. One of my intension that I always do by making all of my building plans are in shallow shape,so I can have cross ventilation in my building. (Picture 3).

洪：这些建筑项目是否表达了泰国性（Thai-ness），或著泰国建筑的特徵？

Hung: Can those projects represent to the Thai-ness or the identity of Thai architecture?Tonkao：我想泰国建筑在住宅设计方面与十年前或十五年前很不一样，尤其当您翻起现在的杂志，你会发现越来越多的住宅空间有一股松弛感，并试著在紧密与松弛之间创造流动性。另外，我认为泰国当代建筑与过去十多年前最大的不同是，过去的空间总是倾向封闭、围合的，但现在越来越多的建筑更开放、自由，甚至更周围环境有更多对话与交流，这是过去在泰国比较少见的（图4）。

Tonkao: I think the identity of Thai architecture nowadays, if you look at many of the houses that are published on magazine, you can see they are not dense and not compacted like 10 to 15 years ago. There are more sense on theloosing up of space and make everything more porous; like penetrating all the spaces and letting the air can be penetrate through the spaces. I think this is one of the characteristic that you can actually see in contemporary Thai architecture, nowadays in many of the houses that you did not see 10 years ago. It is because of 10 years ago all the houses were closed off, so maybe they wereoriented internal organization in the middle of the house. I mean all the houses seem to be opened to the natural context more than 10 years ago (Picture 4).

洪：您的建筑思考与实践方式与西方建筑师关注的很不同，譬如19世纪的建筑师勒·柯布西耶（Le Corbusier），他们在进行建筑设计时总是会有强烈的宣言与意图。

Hung: l think the way of your design is really different with western architect in19thcentury such as Le Corbusier. The way that they built the house, they had very strong intention behind.

Tonkao：他们的理想与企图心很强，认为即便只是一个住宅也要有很强大的宣示，就像是柯布西耶或密斯·凡德罗（Mies van der Rohe）等建筑师。但我不认为我需要那样，我也不认为住宅我所设计的建筑需要表达这个世纪的潮流或反应某种宣言，但我认为我像是柯布西耶或密斯那样，完整的表达对于住宅的想像，并创造独特的基地涵构和完善业主需求（图5、6）。

Tonkao: They have the idealistic, a notion about what kind of house would be. They have the statements,the manifesto like Le Corbusier or Mies van der Rohe, but I do not have that intention. I do not think the houses that I design is a statement or a movement of the era or anything. I do not try to solve the big problem, but I respect their thinking that they could see the totality of their works as solving some problems or answering to international questions or universal questions. However, I do not think my work can answer to universal questions because each projects answer to each clients. Especially only for that site, or that client, or that situation, or that context (Picture 5-6).

洪：如果我们谈到泰国知名建筑师Duangrit Bunnag，他在1998年亚洲金融危机（Asian Financial Crises）期间开始了他的独立事务所Duangrit Bunnag Architect Limited（DBALP），在之后10年中他完成一系列度假酒店，并获得无数建筑大奖。我想问的是，为何20多年过去，泰国青年建筑师依旧以度假酒店为主要项目来源？

Hung: If we talk about Duangrit Bunnag in 1998, he has started Duangrit Bunnag Architect Limited(DBALP) during Asian Financial Crisis, and during 10 years his office finished many resort projects.I am wondering why young generation architects are still working on this kind of project such as hotel, resort or single house project as 20 years ago.

Tonkao：酒店项目能让金钱运转更快，因此成本与经济在短期就能看到成效。相反地，由于政府项目的预算很有限，我更期待这些项目在泰国能有突破与进步，进而促使泰国能与二十年前的城市有较大的改变。回到酒店的话题，这些项目能让建筑师从空间概念发展到具体形态，也让泰国建筑师更喜欢与酒店业主合作，进而在二十年中泰国酒店发展的比任何地方都好。譬如设计医院，许多建筑师会怀疑是否能在这么大的项目中尝试新的空间与形态；但相对于酒店，业主与使用者更期待看到不同空间与形态的尝试，也让建筑师们愿意花更多时间在酒店设计上（图7、8）。

Tonkao: I think these are the programs that earn more money comparing with other intuitional project. In fact, my wish is to see the government project, intuitional project to be developed further, however because of the limitation of the government, so we do not see that coming. So all those projects are happening but they appear in similar situation whichwere happened in 20 years ago. But with these resorts or houses,these programsallow architect to transform developing their ideas, so the Thai architects like to work with program that opens up more opportunities for exploring. For example, doing the hospital project, there are many architects in Thailand would hesitate to dobecause it is a complicated project and it does not allow you to explore the space and the form, so I think that why we see architect being so happy to work on a program like resort (Picture 7-8).

洪：能否谈谈泰国建筑师与西方建筑师的差异性？

Hung: DoesThai architects have different approach comparing with the western architects?

Tonkao：我认为不应该把泰国建筑师全数放在一个篮子，因为每个人的实践方式都不同。就像您之前所提到的Bangkok Project Studio主持建筑师Boonserm Premthada，他正逐渐让建筑与社会两者产生重大意义；但如果您说我或是Jun Sekino，我们更擅长处理空间议题与功能关系。如果您说像是CHAT architects主持建筑师Chatpong Chuenrudeemol，他则在这两个群体之间，一方面带有刻意批判的设计元素，一方面反应行为模式与日常生活。因此我认为泰国建筑师有非常多样的类型，这是与西方不同的。

Tonkao: I think it kinds of difficult to put Thai architect in one basket, because everyone is different.However, if you talk about Boonserm Premthada,he is addressing architecture very differently from other people. His architectures propose monumental as he said; it sorts of create experience rather than dealing the daily life. If you talk about other architects, like me or Jun Sekino, we are dealing with processissues and programs. If we talk about Chatpong Chuenrudeemol, he is between Boonserm Premthada and me, I think his works sometime are very highly rhetorical, but at the same time he deals with sort of the habit and people life. So I think Thai architects have many different categories, and itis very different with western countries.

图1、2，北柳府知识文化中心/ Knowledge Center of Chachoengsao（摄影/ Photo：Spaceshift Studio）

图3、4，DN住宅╱House DN（摄影╱Photo：Beer Singnoi）

洪：事实上这也是我的问题，当您看著新加坡建筑师，就会发现他们不彰显风格，但建筑物却看起来非常的新加坡。但回到泰国，如您所言泰国建筑师非常多样化，我们无法找到一个共通性或是相同类别，但结果怎会导向谁喜欢Boonserm Premthada的设计风格，谁则喜欢Chatpong Chuenrudeemol的设计风格。

Hung: This is also one of my question, like when you look at Singaporean architects, you can feel the architects do notneed to talk about their styles, but each building lookslike the same and it is only specific in Singapore. But as you mentioned, Thai architects are very diverse, so we cannot categorize them. And the result is only who like Boonserm Premthada’swork or Chatpong Chuenrudeemol’s work, etc.

Tonkao：我想新加坡也具备著多样性，但新加坡建筑师会有更多的共通性是在于他们的面积受限，也会让实践导向同质化。相比泰国，我们的土地面积比新加坡大很多，同时我们也存在著比新加坡更不同的环境关系需要建筑师去面对，因此这是回复您所问的，为何泰国建筑师的多样性如此巨大，因为我们所要面对的环境差异性比新加坡建筑师更多。此外像是Boonserm Premthada所设计的罗勇府班昌市政厅（Baan Chang Town Hall）和素辇府大象王国（Elephant World），他所处理的环境问题非常独特，也导致他能做出特别的回应与设计。我认为我们所面临的问题很不同，也让我们不仅思考功能问题，更要解决环境议题等因素。

Tonkao: I think Singapore has sort of the certain thing which is not national stylistic of representation,but many Singaporean architects have more commonality because of their limited size of land and the homogenization of practice. Compared to Thailand, our space is much larger than Singaporeand we have so many different kind of context and architect need to deal with it. That why the diversity of Thai architects is so obvious.For example, Boonserm Premthada designed theBaan Chang Town Hall andElephant World.He deals with very unique situation which of course it would never be existed in Singapore. But once, if he designs a project such as a house in the middle of Bangkok, he willcompletely deal with different kind of question, which allowshim to have different types and different kinds of answer to these questionsat the same time. It is not only each architect is different, but even the same architect who deals with the question quite differently, also has different answer because of the diversity of context.

Kulthida：这个问题让我想到食物，如果我们想吃新加坡食物，会想到的永远是那一两种… 但是泰国食物，则有太多种选择，更别说还有无数种的调味料。

Kulthida: Actually this question reminded me about the food. If we want to try the Singapore food,we may just know one or two dishes. But for Thai food, there are many kinds.

Tonkao：事实上我与教授才在晚餐中所聊到，他说泰式料理很不同，每道菜都有很复杂的香辛料，而且能在同一时间感觉到又甜又辣。从料理这件事情便能反应泰国人的特色，我们并没有一个完整的图像，或许传统建筑有，但在现实城市如曼谷、清迈、普吉甚至还有些偏远地区，这些城市逐渐发展的更完整，趋向完整但又异质的涵构性。这样的多样性与复杂性从地区发展而来，举个例子像景观事务所Shma所设计的森林之宅（Forested House），这个项目最近被刊登在泰国《Design Something》头条。这个住宅在非常有限的土地中占满整个地块，但建筑上方却有满满的树，同时若留意到周围环境，会发现差异性非常大，因为一边是低矮住宅，但另一边则是高层酒店公寓。在这个案例中，可以看到即便是一个住宅，也面对著相当戏剧性的环境关系；因此不仅是泰国建筑师类型多样，即便是相同建筑案，建筑设计也具备多种回复，而这正是泰国当代建筑的最大特色。

Tonkao: In fact, this is one thing that I discussedin my dinnerwith Professor David Leatherbarrow who came to have a public lecture in Bangkok. He said Thai food is very different to many other food because the food is so complex and contradictory at the same time. Some dishes are very sweet and some dishes are sweet and spicy. I think it is same with everything, for Thai people,wedo not have any idealistic image of one thing, but I know if we talk about tradition Thai house about 100 years ago, of course you would have one image. But nowadays, we have different character of city such as Bangkok, Chiangmai, Phuket and we have several rural areas. And I think everything have grown into a completely different way, itbecomes a completely different context. This diversity and complexity come from that. For example,Forested House designedby one of principal landscape architect from Shma, it just featured in design mediacalled Design Something. This house hasvery limited piece of land. He grew a lot of trees in whole piece of land. At the same time if you look at the photo, the context around his house is completely different, one side is a low house with a lot of tree and another side is sort of the apartment building. So within one house we have to deal with different types of context. It is not only the several architects, sometime in the same project, you need to answer diverse of questions. Therefore, this is the characteristic of Thai contemporary architecture.

Kulthida：能否分享泰国当代建筑正走向哪个方向？

Kulthida: Do you think which directionThai contemporary architecture is going?

Tonkao：我期待的是看到建筑师更专注于文化层面，并非将建筑执业视为一个狭隘的领域，更要全面与完善。我们需要更集中精神让建筑置入后能连动相关事物，不只是经济层面，还包括政治、社会、文化等议题。我想泰国建筑之所以让人期待，是因为它有很多不可预期的可能性，可以更好甚至可以回应更多问题。目前，泰国建筑师的视野相对集中于独立实践，并没有与太多层面发生关系；相较于中国，我相信在那边的建筑真实地回应社会与文化议题。我们有更多的期待看到泰国当代建筑中的建筑师以及青年实践者，不仅在社会实践上做出贡献，另外也需要不断质疑项目本身是否与社会发生关系，这将会引导泰国建筑走向对的未来（图9）。

Tonkao: I think what I want to see that architect needs to be a lot more concern with culture in general. It is not only to see the architecture as an object finishing by itself. But we need to be concern about how this project is going to be situate in relation to other thing that are happening; not only the economic but also the political and a lot other social cultural issues that are changing in Thailand. For nowadays Thai architects see architecture as autonomous discipline not so much related to other things. I think architecture discipline in China is a lot more related to culture and social issues, much more than the architecture in Thailand.That is what I want to see, of course there are some people who are doing the social work, but I think every single architects and every young architects in Thailand need to ask the relationship between their projects and social issues that they are going on at the time (Picture 9).