[U·说]赵元超·说西安

赵元超 / [Interviewee]ZHAO Yuanchao

[时 间]2018年1月30日 / [Date]January 30, 2018

[地 点]西 安 / [Place]Xi’an, China

[采访人]陈 茜 詹皓安 / [Interviewer]CHEN Xi, ZHAN Haoan

Q1 立足于这片土地，首先想请您谈谈历史丰厚的古都西安的文化特色及其对塑造城市空间的影响。

在西安我们做每个项目可能都会产生与这片土地历史文化的关系，都有很多挑战。西安的“历史土层”比较厚，它历经中华文化最重要的几个年代，包括周秦汉唐等。在显性的城市遗址方面，明代的城墙依旧保留着完整的格局，唐代的城市格局仍然表现出宏大的气势（图2）。昨天晚上我们讨论的一个项目，都已经位于高新区了，在考证历史遗址时还发现了金光门。在西安的创作离不开历史文化。

西安这个城市叠加着不同时期的基因。《周礼·考工记》里西周的丰镐，就是中国城市的典范。我们研究城市稍微深一点的话，就脱离不开唐长安的规划，所以我形容一座西安城，就是半部中国史。对城市来说，还是建筑承载着民族的历史文化，也是文化、政治、经济的集中体现，此外还有隐性的文字、诗歌等，必然会有着深刻的影响。

随着历史的发展，西安衰落了。从一个“都”变成一个“府”，有了很明显的军事特色，崇尚简洁且快速又很实在的东西。关中传统民居讲究“房子半边盖”，存在为了节省木头、“肥水不流外人田”等说法。对此我还有一种解读，铁打的江山流水的兵，就是快速和简单。在饮食上，羊肉泡馍也是一样的道理。

综合来看的话，西安既有都城的基因，又有军事重镇的特色。我觉得不管是哪种生活方式，文化基因的影响是非常深刻的，它带给西安人很多文化自信，同时又有失落的自卑，这种自信和自卑交织在一起，共同存在于西安这个城市的发展历程中。有一派学者很坚守西安这座古城的特色，出现了唐皇城复兴计划、恢复历史古都风貌的一些做法；也有些学者更主张国际化，要求符合整个城市发展的规律。这两种观点贯穿在西安的建设发展中，但还是有一点大家达成了共识，就是西安的城市很方正，不应该有太多的曲线，建筑也应该是大平大方。例如我们做过西咸新区的一个项目，就是把方块进行到底，建筑基本上都是正方的形体，然后组成一个和谐的现代城市。还有西安的行政中心城市设计，我们也很纠结，一定是坡屋顶吗？为了顺应城市设计，该设计作为西安一个贯穿汉唐到明清再到现在城市中轴线上的政府项目，应该着力表现西安的城市文化特色，最后采用了庭院式布局和坡屋顶的方式，表现对历史的一种尊重，取得了良好的效果，这个是规划师和建筑师合力完成的一个典型项目。

图1 / Figure 12018年1月3日，赵元超总建筑师在中国建筑西北设计研究院接受采访Mr. ZHAO Yuanchao in Interview, January 3, 2018, China Northwest Architecture Design and Research Institute Co.,Ltd., Xi’an, China

每个建筑师做设计都会带有很强烈的地域色彩或者基因的影响，这个基因有些是隐性的，有些是显性的。任何建筑创作都脱离不了它的文化和所处时代。原来我们身处这个城市还不觉得，但当你离开西安看看其他城市文化，就会发现西安还有那么一点特有的味道和调性，包括西安的饮食文化和人们的性格，都和这个城市相关。像西安人的生冷倔强，与我们建筑的大平正方，好像都能对应，在人的性格中就不太喜欢过于弯弯绕绕的事儿，更希望直来直去（图3）。

Q2 西安是座特色鲜明的城市，您认为西安有哪些充满活力的公共空间？它们在城市中是如何发挥作用的？

我觉得现代城市活力空间与它的空间界面、历史、交通都有关系。我记得我在读研究生的时候，有人说任何一个城市，你最想去的就是它的市中心或是传统的商业中心，因为这是一个有活力的空间。当然，一个城市超过几百万人口以后，它的中心肯定不止一个，而会有多个。但活力空间是具有一些特点的，类似于我们的钟鼓楼，它是西安的典范，尤其在钟鼓楼广场建成以后，既反映了“晨钟暮鼓”的历史景观，也是老城中最大的城市开放空间。我觉得西安钟鼓楼历史格局非常好，也很有意思，交相辉映。北院门历史街区也非常有趣，满足了现代城市多样性的需求；南门城市广场，也是比较有活力的一个区域，但可惜有些地方没有完全连通，对整个片区活力的体现有所影响；西安南郊的年轻人都喜欢在小寨活动，也是因为有特色和历史文化。

我读书的时候也是很关注建筑的造型是什么，一定是要语不惊人死不休。实际上对于一个城市或者一个空间来说，建筑就只是一个层次，构成生活空间的还有它的历史、文化、自然等。一个城市的文明程度、开放空间的多少就是一个重要指标。像钟鼓楼广场这么黄金的地方，20年前就能够开辟一片城市绿地，这还是很有决心和先知的。所以我觉得人的活动才是最终构成这个城市活力的根本。我经常举例说丽江，它的标志性建筑是什么？建筑就是皮，所有的建筑围合成空间，人在其中的活动、生活才是这个城市的核心。就像你们经常去的北院门，人的活动才是根本，实际上也没太多好吃的，但是人聚在一起以后，人看人的那种热闹感觉，很惬意。

如何创造人的空间，是建筑师们设计的重点。过去我们特别重视建筑内部的空间，但对于城市来说，建筑的界面又构成了城市空间的围合。那么在这个空间，怎么能把所有的消极空间都变成积极的空间，让人使用起来很有趣，这是我们建筑师关注的重点。

图2 / Figure 2西安城区整体鸟瞰 / Rendering of Xi’an City

过去人们自发设计的传统聚落和街道，确实能带给建筑师很多启发，对于这个现象我也觉得很奇怪。我刚从贵州回来，那里的农民做的东西都很和谐，空间联系很巧妙，和自己的需求结合得也很好。为什么专业的建筑师一做反而都不行了呢？这是不是我们的训练或者建筑教育里边，对建筑形式的关注太多，对人的关注较少？再次提到我们的北院门，那里单纯的建筑没有一个特别好看的，但是它有空间的多样性，有大尺度的西羊市，有弯弯曲曲的化觉巷直到大清真寺，还有民族的多样性以及多样文化的融合，这就构成了一个丰富多彩的城市生活，也让它有了足够的吸引力。

北院门历史街区却又有很多隐患，最近市里提出要对这片区域进行现代化的提升改造。但是怎么改造确实挺难，情况非常复杂。我们参与过一些类似项目，包括现在还在做的书院门历史街区、小雁塔周围里坊制的研究、三学街旁边碑林博物馆的北扩建工程等。怎么把遗产保护和城市更新结合在一起，这已经不仅是一个建筑学的问题，更牵涉到整个社会的发展，包括土地的产权结构等关系。到底是腾笼换鸟还是就地更新是很难选择的，特别对西安这个城市来说，它最大的魅力脱离不了老城所具有的历史。所以我们常说，一个好的城市是能讲出很多故事的。

Q3 请您谈谈对西安旧城保护与城市发展的看法。

刚才提到了城市拥有的显性或隐性的基因，所以旧城的保护绝对不是大拆大建。

我觉得这些老城市主要的魅力是街巷的肌理和它的空间，所以我认为老城改造和提升需要的是一个“微创手术”和“针灸疗法”。我们在南门片区做的设计，也是在老城市里的“心脏搭桥手术”。它是整个城市对外迎宾的会客厅，表面上和我们城市整体格局一样，但会在地下空间进行现代化建设，适应城市发展（图4）。

对于老城区这一块，我也不太赞同原模原样的城市保护，城市的发展和更新，要让各阶层的人享受到发展的红利。我小时候就在老城住，那里其实很艰苦，生活各方面都很不方便，没有厕所、下水道、自来水。北京、西安这些城市的保护为什么比上海要难得多？一个重要的原因就在于北京或者西安就是农业时代发展的社会，而上海已经是一个前工业社会。石库门都有卫生间、有厨房，它已经经过现代化改造了，类似巴黎一样。保护是有条件的，我们的城市保护是把一个农业时代的居住或者生活样本，提升到一个后现代的社会生活。我的个人观点是，不一定刻意地追求形式，只要把城市空间尺度保护好，把街道的肌理保护好，采用渐次的有机更新就可以。这里也有很多比较成功的实例，比如西安的湘子庙街的青年旅社及民宿绝对不能有大尺度的改造更新，否则一改之后把街道的肌理全都破坏掉了。

中国解放前就有四万万同胞，而我们现在有13亿，而且每个人的生存需求比过去的要求高得多，生活方式也不太一样。所以历史街区的保护，我觉得从尺度上、层次上去做是一种方法，绝对不能大拆大建。实话说我们现在也没找到一个好的方法，我们都在尝试，像汉中三遗址的保护规划，有些原地保护多一些，有的会大修或重修，还有在保护肌理条件下有机更新。我有一个观点，可能不应太刻意追求所谓风貌的协调，还应该从生态等角度来考虑。我们20世纪六七十年代有些建筑，我觉得还能用，而且这也是一种时代的演进。现在有一种观点说风貌不协调，就要全部拆了，我也不太同意。可能太爱形式太爱面子，这背后就有很多经济的、生态的问题。我们拆完一栋楼以后一大堆垃圾，这些往哪放？然后又再建一栋楼，又是生态的重复破坏。现在我们已经到了保护不同时期建筑遗产的阶段，20世纪60年代住的筒子楼，虽然简陋但改造后总能用，但所谓的历史民居都摇摇摆摆，像风烛残年的老人。大家说后者一定要保护，而前者就是风貌不协调要拆除，这个观点不太全面，需要有一个更全面的观点或者更理性的对城市本质的看法。这方面我们也在探讨，怎么把一个农业社会居住方式变得适应现代生活。

建筑的本质是使用，一定要把现代生活融入保护建筑之中，我们现在的保护也是希望让遗址活起来。针对西安南门片区我们还真的做了些城市设计的研究，实际上也是围绕人怎么在这活动的研究。尽管周边有很多不协调因素，但这没办法，那是一种社会发展过程中的产物，也不是我们能够左右的，我们能做的是让它更好一些。

Q4 渭河是西安的母亲河，请您谈谈对西安城市滨水空间的看法。

其实西安一直是个缺水的城市，说它是母亲河，这可能是现在我们的一种提法。原来说是“八水绕长安”，实际上我们印象更深的是城河。所有的城市的发展都是在水边的，要不在就海边或是河边。西安的城市发展，从渭河北侧的秦咸阳到渭河南岸的汉长安，再到唐长安，都与水的利用和防治有关。

现在提出西安要跨过渭河发展，要跳出城墙思维，要站在秦岭之巅看西安。但也有人提出，西安如果没有城墙，还有什么？这说明一点，西安的发展一直存在着两种思潮的碰撞，一种说古老的太多，一种说现代化的不够。

现在所有的城市都很重视自己所依赖的河流，像原来西安的灞三角洲，现在是渭河，还有沣渭三角洲。我的态度是人胜不了天，我对“南水北调”有自己的看法，应顺其自然，人定顺天，也没必要建很多拦水坝之类，造成一种滨水的假象，实际上保持自然就好。说到城河，就是濠，国外的很多城河其实就是干枯的，它表示一个很原始的状态。所以对于河流，我觉得还是应该遵从我们老祖宗说的天人合一，我并不主张在滨水建太多人为的东西，像京都的鸭川，它的河边就是很多自然的状态，土制的足球场、篮球场，水淹就淹了。对它没有过多亭台楼阁之类的修饰，完全是一个自然的景观，我们也应该用大景观的概念进行城市设计。

图3 / Figure 3大西安新中心能源金融贸易区起步区 / New Xi'an Center

图4 / Figure 4西安南门广场综合提升改造工程 / South Gate Square, Xi'an

我有一个观点：自然是优于人工的。我们说“巧夺天工”，但人造再好也没有自然的好。河流也应该是这样，让它很自然地释放天性。植物也一样，它是一个不断生长的生命美学，何必把它修剪得那么拟人化，做个花坛都做成动物的形象，这并不是对生命的礼赞。河流也是这样，我们在灞做过一个博物馆，就是一个Z字形的建筑，匍匐地伸入河道，与河流长在一起，人工物一定要少而精。我们现在对任何东西都过分打扮，像之前对城市的“美容”运动，美容就是毁容了。对河流也是这样，所以我不太赞同过度的设计。不是一说城中河就一定要想着塞纳河，它也是经过了历历代代多少年的建设而成的。这种观点一直要渗透到我们城市的各个方面，就是设计的态度，我们要处处有设计，但看起来没有设计，没有雕琢的痕迹，这才是设计的最高境界。

Q5 您认为西安居民的生活习惯有何特性？这种特性对城市空间的形成和使用会产生什么影响？

这个我倒觉得不是太大。西安也算是移民城市，它不太有非常明确的地域特性。你说居民的习惯对整个城市生活方式影响很大，我倒觉得是基因和性格对整个城市的影响很大。我觉得生活习惯，特别是现代化的文明变化很快，人们的生活习惯也在同质化、国际化。类似于各个大房地产的开发，北京的万科和西安的万科有什么区别？现在工业文明带来人的生活方式的确统一化了，这个生活方式对城市的影响不是太大。

当然生活方式也包括工作生活的模式，西安在时间、距离、尺度方面的概念和北京就完全不一样。像我们西北院的这种办公生活综合体，这种“前店后寝”的模式，好的方面是节约了通勤时间，但是就会造成人的生活不够丰富，太单一，不过西安人都还挺喜欢这种模式。但是它好像也构成不了什么主流，这种特殊的范式还构不成对城市的影响。

Q6 刚才您也提到了外来人口的情况，那么您认为游客与外来人口对西安城市特色塑造有何影响？

这个还是挺有影响的。西安执政者要把旅游产业作为重要的支柱产业，肯定要在乎外地人对西安的评价。像西安的大唐芙蓉园等一系列唐风建筑，从旅游业来说可能就是所有人的期许。西安作为国家的中心城市，要用中华文明发祥地这种高度来定位，很自然地就要去挖掘我们有什么东西，这就诞生了一批芙蓉园、华清池、大唐华清城等唐风产物。这里是唐代的首都，我们就想看到唐代是多么辉煌，不然什么都看不到。

一个城市的发展，绝对不是一个人的意愿，而是结合整个城市的政府、居民、设计师的结果。我记得很早前就讨论过，西安是千年古都，我们要找出一个能代表西安特色的朝代。明清有北京和南京，都比西安的规模大，遗存比较多；西安能找到的就是唐朝，这是中国最鼎盛的时期，要把这个表现得淋漓尽致，这是西安人的自豪，同时也是为了满足旅游的需要。

西安的城市定位对整体城市风貌影响很大。一个城市应该是丰富多彩的，它不仅有唐代，还有以西安明代城墙格局为代表的一系列文化遗产。我们应该表现各个时期，西安城墙上的箭楼等建筑很纯正，它的比例非常恢弘大气。所以我觉得西安的发展可能是有失偏颇的，它对不同的时代都应该尊重，而不是一提起来就是汉唐。比如西安城里边西大街的改建就有争论，本来西大街就在名城内，但却做了很多唐风建筑，这就是整个旅游发展讲究的“大”，只有唐代的硕大“帽子”才能满足，这些都需要不断的总结。

Q7 请您谈谈以张锦秋大师为代表的唐风建筑对西安城市整体风貌的影响。

张总对整个西安城市保护和城市风貌的确立起到了不可替代的作用，这是非常有价值的。她的建筑与城市思想，确实与这个城市整体的发展很契合，为这个城市做出了很多重要的贡献，完整实现了梁思成先生的一些理想。在她到了西安以后，城墙保护、城市风貌等思想在西安实现了，张总是梁先生的继承者，这个是对西安城市的重要贡献。包括我们提到的钟鼓楼广场的设计，张总是开了城市设计先河的具体实践者，钟鼓楼广场是城市设计的一个很重要的范例，到现在为止建成20年了，越来越觉得它是西安人赏心悦目的城市开放空间，代表着西安的形象，更是西安的中心和会客厅。

她的创作理念很早就从城市设计的角度来设计城市。比如陕博，在大雁塔的旁边，博物馆应该反映什么？它需要一种很恰当的语言来表达陕西悠久灿烂的历史文化，这里就采用了中国宫殿的形式。去年我们给张总举行的一个作品展就是在她设计的博物馆进行的，这个博物馆都25年了依然很实用，风采依旧，内部空间适应现代的展览，又可以带给人壮观的感受。还有30年前的三唐工程，它与大雁塔的关系和整个区域风貌的协调，也是一个很有价值的创作。在大雁塔周边，你不可能想象有玻璃幕墙之类的建筑，她能够把传统空间美学和中国园林的意境体现出来。张总说她是在特定的地点做的这些创作，并不代表西安所有类似项目都会这样做。在西安标志性的节点、特定的条件、特定的建筑类型下采用这种方式，是得体的。张总设计的钟鼓楼广场是一种方式，长安塔主要使用了钢结构、玻璃，又是另一种方式。张总也是与时俱进的，她觉得这种风貌是西安在探索城市更新与城市风貌保护中的一个重要里程碑。

同时在西安也有很多其他的尝试，比如刘克成老师的一些作品，当然还有我们做的一些项目。建筑毕竟还是要现代化，它不仅仅是看，还是要用的，必须适应现在的生活方式和现在的行为。例如我们做的西安市政府，办公楼需要高效、环境优美，能在公园中办公，这就是好办公楼的重要标准。虽然上面也采用了一些坡屋顶，但是坡顶里边也是能够利用的空间，没有浪费。我们设计建筑的一个很重要的原理就是要用最小的代价换取最大的效益。

张总被评为何梁何利奖、陕西省科技进步奖的获得者，最高成就还有以她名字命名的小行星等，这都是社会对她在这个城市、在这个行业所做出的重要贡献的认可。我随张总一起做的陕西省图书馆就很现代，没有唐代大屋顶，到现在20年过去了，它依旧被大家评为二环边最有代表性的建筑。很多人给张总一个标签，就是唐风。实际上张总也在采用一些不同的方式，针对不同的题材、特定的地点来采用不同的措施，张总遇到的创作题材大部分是这样，所以她就要采用这种方式。这也是我们城市设计一个很重要的原理，就是要恰到好处、得体。十年前我们和张总讨论西安的发展，她也说要多元并举、和而不同，也体现了她创作思想之广阔。

Q8 请您列举一例西安最具特色的场所，并说明理由。

这个特色和活力可能是结合在一起的，有特色才会有活力。在西安的话，我觉得特色的场所是有一些，但还没连成线。钟鼓楼这里就是一个点，代表经典的城市中心，然后延伸到北院门传统文化街，代表民俗，它们在节假日是西安最有活力的场所。其实钟楼到南门就500m，南门是西安最具特色的城楼，又是西安迎接国外元首的国门，一定是有活力的场所。在它的东侧还有独一无二的碑林以及西安书院门。所以我一直在做一些尝试，今后特色场所的连线可能就是从南门到碑林，到书院门、钟楼，再到北院门以及清真寺。它可能涵盖了很多西安最具特色的，也是有活力的一些场所。我也常思考这样一个问题，其他城市的一些遗产为什么都能被拆光但西安却没有？就是因为西安的骨子里边有皇城的基因，西安在宋代已经成了一个府，但它依旧有那种胸怀。正如张载创立的“关学”的主旨：为天地立心，为生民立命，为往圣继绝学，为万世开太平，他这种胸怀绝不是小地方人所有的，这就是城市给予他基因里边的广阔的济世胸怀，也是一种都城气势。

所以我觉得能把这条线连起来是非常好的。我们所说的城市设计，或是我们对城市的保护和特色的塑造，首先得把城市的亮点找出来，更要体现出来。钟鼓楼广场原来的钟楼和鼓楼互相都不见面，通过设计这个广场，才使这种晨钟暮鼓成为了一个城市空间和一个城市的活力场所。如果这些不足1km的一系列城市遗产连接在一起，能够把咱们前面所说的北院门、书院门、碑林等连起来，这一定是西安很具有活力的区域。现在点状的碑林、书院门是文化旅游旺地，北院门是民俗的饮食文化聚集地，钟楼又是典型明代城池标志，这些特色是其他地方都取代不了的，它们有浓厚的历史文化以及多样性，所以也需要我们不断地探索。

Q9 在谈了很多西安这一历史古城的旧城问题之后，也想请您谈谈对西安新城建设的看法。

这个我们也在实践，我们最近一个项目在西咸新区的中央商务区，就是在探索未来城市如何发展，如何满足现在的需求，又不失文化意趣。我不愿意去提风貌，让西咸新区的风貌和西安旧城一致，这太强人所难了。我们常容易去追求建筑与城市的表象而非本质，形式永远是一些表象。我们就在设想这个未来的城市，想去探索一种新的方式，这里不是针对每一个地块来做，而是做完城市设计后的一个集群式设计。这个区域的城市设计是刘太格做的，之后又聘请不同的建筑师各做一个地块，但都是在这个城市设计严格的控制下继续深入的设计。

在具体的设计上很重要的一点是，我们追求群体取胜，而非在个体上追求标志。我们这些建筑师都默契地遵循了方正的体型，可能西安真有点这个基因，它是四方城，四方的宅子，什么都是四四方方的，这就是它的城市气质和城市性格。我们将方形进行到底，但方形就像魔方一样可以变化出很多方式。同时我们很重视整个现代城市的交通，在地下把这4个地块全部都挖空，形成地下环廊，这样的话地面的空间完全连续，防止地面人车混杂。我们想做个真正为人服务的城市，这里边有很多人能够交往的、能感到赏心悦目的、变化有趣的空间。这里还做了一个于右任的博物馆，但它完全是一个按照古代木结构来建造的房子，与周围形成一个强烈的对比冲突，故事性很强。所有的建筑我们几乎全部贯通，有一个二层步行空间，只有在我们集群设计这种条件下才能真的去关注城市的空间。如果是各自为政的建设，像我们目前的开发方式，它只能关注自己，而把边角余料让给城市。所以我们这个反过来的做法，就是希望创造出城市公共的空间、人的空间。

在西安城市周边，我们是不是需要更现代一点？我觉得一点问题都没有。大家现在实际上对什么是好空间、什么是现代化的有些认知是相同的，这也是全球化的特点。既然是全球化，就可能会丧失部分地域化。但是西安的母城在这儿，其他地方是取代不了的。当然，对现代化的探索一直是有很多种的，它们共同组成一个很丰富多彩的城市，这很正常。我曾经写过一篇文章叫殊途同归，比如罗马的城市起源或是汉长安的城市变迁，到最后会是一致的。再比如说院子，伊斯兰对庭院也很有研究和建树，不同地域文化只不过人对它的适应，包括尺度、民族文化等有所差异而已。我觉得在古城这一块我们能够切实地保护好，其他地方可以根据我们对城市、对未来的不同理解，怎么做都可以，它也需要现代化、国际化，别过分地追求地域。除非是在我们的遗址旁边，我们对遗址有尊重和敬畏的态度就行，但是做法可以另类并存。

[U-TALK]ZHAO Yuanchao·TALK about Xi’an City

[Interviewee]ZHAO Yuanchao[Date]January 30, 2018[Place]Xi’an, China[Interviewer]CHEN Xi, ZHAN Haoan[Translator]ZHAN Haoan, CHEN Xi,(from Chinese to English)

Zhao Yuanchao, born in Xi’an in 1963, graduated from Chongqing University with Bachelor of Architecture in 1985 and Master Degree from Department of Architecture theory and design in 1988. In the same year, he started his career in China Northwest Architecture Design and Research Institute, learned from National academician—Zhang Jinqiu. Now taking place as the chief architect in CSCECNWI.

Zhao Yuanchao practices nearly thirty years has created a number of modern architectures with local characteristics focusing on Xi’an and other cities, keeps on exploring his road of architecture design in the vast western land(Figure 1).

Source: Provided by Mr. ZHAO Yuanchao.

Q1 First of all, please talk about the culture features about the ancient city, Xi’an,and its impact on creating city spaces.

In Xi’an, every project we work on might face the relationship between the land and the history. There are many challenges. Xi’an has thick “History layers” that it went through some of the most important dynasties of Chinese culture, including Zhou,Qin, Han, Tang, etc. Those dominance city ruins show that rampart of Ming dynasty still remains its complete pattern, the city pattern of Tang dynasty still shows the great momentum (Figure 2). The project that we were discussing about last night is locating on new developed area but we still found the golden light gate when digging about history ruins. Creating in Xi’an can’t do without historical culture.

Xi’an has genes of different dynasty. Zhouli: Kaogongji has mentioned about Fenggao of Xizhou dynasty as a model of Chinese cities. If we learn more about cities then we’ll know about planning of Changan. So I always describe Xi’an city as half of Chinese history. To a city, architectures loading historical culture of a nation, which embodies the culture, politics, economics, and also has great impact on recessive characters and poetries.

As history developed, Xi’an has declined, from a“city” to a “county” , and turned out to be distinct military features. Admires whatever its simple, fast,and real. Traditional house in Guanzhong is fancy for ”half-built house”, in order to economize woods.I think it’s all about fast and simple. And the food,bread with mutton soup, shows same idea.

In conclusion, Xi’an has both features of capital and military base. I think both of the living styles are deeply effected by culture, which gave confidence to Xi’an people, and also the inferiority of decline. The confidence and inferiority mix together and exist in the development of Xi’an.There is a group of scholars sticking to the characteristics of the ancient city of Xi’an, and came up with practices of the revival plan of Tang dynasty’s capital, and the recovery of the ancient styled city;the others advocated internationalization, which conforms to the law of the whole city development.These two views run through the construction and development of Xi’an. But there is a consensus that Xi’an city is very square, should not have too many curves, the building should be generous. For example, we have done a project in Xi’an new district,which is based on squares, the building is basically by the form of the square, and then construct a harmonious modern city. Besides, the urban design of Xi’an administrative center, we are also very tangled, is it supposed to be the slope roof? In order to adapt to urban design, as a government program of Xi’an, which through the central axis since Han and Tang dynasty till now, should focus on performing the culture characteristic of Xi’an city, in the end, we adopted the courtyard layout and slope roof to show a respect for history, which caused a good effect. It’s a typical project done by planners and architects worked together.

Every architect designs with strong regional colors,some of them are recessive, some are dominant.No architect creation can pull away from its culture and time. We have no conscious when situate in this city, but once you leave to see other cities,you’ll fi nd the special taste and tone of Xi’an. Food culture and characters of people related to the city.Xi’an people are more attend to be straight and stubborn than being euphemism (Figure 3).

Q2 Xi’an is a distinctive city, please introduce some energetic public spaces and how they function in the city.

I think the energetic spaces of a modern city are related to its spatial interface, history and transportation. I remember when I was a graduate student,some said that in a city, the place you would like to go most should be the city center or the traditional business center. It’s an energetic space. Of course,since a city has more than a million people, there must be more than one center. But there are some features of energetic spaces, for example, the Bell-Drum Tower, it is the model of Xi’an, especially after the construction of the Bell-Drum Tower square, it not only re fl ects the historical landscape of the “morning bells and evening drums”, but also the largest urban open space in the old town.I think the history layer of Bell-Drum Tower in Xi’an is very interesting. The north courtyard historic district is also very interesting, which fi ts the diverse need of modern urban. The other example is the South Gate City Square, which is also a energetic region, but it is a pity that some places are not completely connected which impacts the vitality of the whole area. Young people in southern suburbs of Xi’an like to live in small villages because of their own characteristics and historical culture.

When I was a student, I was very concerned about the shape of the building. It has to be stunning. In fact, to a city or a space, architecture is only a layer of it, and there are other elements like history,culture, and nature that construct living space. The amount of open space is a important indicator of the civilization degree of a city. Hot spot like the Bell-drum Tower square, opened up a city green space 20 years ago, which is still determined and prophetic. So I think human activity is the ultimate foundation of the energy of this city. I often take Lijiang for example, what is the landmark building of Lijiang? Architecture is a surface, architectures construct spaces, and the activities and the living of people are the core of the city. In Beiyuanmen area,people always get together and talk to each other there. It is a very pleasant place, even though there are not so many restaurants there, because people’s activities are most important.

How to create space for people? It’s a point for designers. In the past, we focus on inner spaces of architecture, but to a city, interfaces of architecture construct the surrounding of city space. How do you turn those negative spaces into positive spaces? That’s what architects cares.

In the past, traditional settlements and streets are designed spontaneously by people, which can inspire architects. I’m confused by this phenomenon. I just came back from Guizhou, where the farmers made things very harmonious, the space connection is very ingenious, and also fi t their own needs. Why do professional architects fail to do so?Is it because our training or architectural education focus too much on the form of architecture,but less attention on people? Again, let’s talk about the Beiyuanmen area, where the building is not pretty, but it contains diverse spaces, large scale as the Xiyang market, turning lanes as Huajue alley, the Grand Mosque, the diversity of nation, and the integration of various cultures, add up as an abundant city life,which also makes it attractive enough.

However, there are many hidden dangers in the Beiyuanmen historical area. Recently, modernizing and upgrading this area is proposed. But how? It’s very dicult and complicated. We have participated in some of these projects, including the Shuyuanmen historical blocks, the study of the neighborhood system around the Xiaoyen pagoda,and the expansion project of the Stele museum next to the Sanxue street. How to combine heritage protection with urban renewal is not only an architectural problem, but also involves the development of the whole society, including the property right structure of the land. To keep the surface and update the content, or to regenerate the whole?Especially for Xi’an, its greatest charm cannot be without the history of the old city. So we often say that a good city can tell many stories.

Q3 Can you talk about your opinion about conservation and development of Xi’an?

Like I’ve just mentioned, the city has some genes of dominant and some of recessive, so the conservation of an old town must not be huge transformation.

I think the facsination of these old cities is the texture and space of the streets, so I think the transformation and promotion of the old city is a“minimally invasive operation” and “acupuncture therapy”. Our design in the South Gate area is also a “heart bypass operation” in the old city. It is the guest hall of the whole city, on the ground it looks like fi tting the pattern of our city, but in the underground space, it will be modernized and adapt to the city development (Figure 4).

For the old town part, I don’t agree with the urban protection of keeping the whole original appearance, the development and renewal of the city should let the people of all classes benefit from the development. When I was a child, I lived in an old town. It was very hard to live in that area.

They were very inconvenient in every aspect of their lives. There were no toilets, sewers, and running water. Why is the protection of these cities like Beijing and Xi’an much more diffcult than in Shanghai? An important reason is that Beijing or Xi’an is developed as an agricultural society,and Shanghai developed as a preindustrial society. There are toilets and kitchens in Shikumen,it is modernized and similar to Paris. Protection is conditional. Our urban protection is to upgrade the sample of living in an agricultural era to a post-modern social life. My personal view is that it is not necessary to pursuit form, just to protect the urban space scale and the texture of the street well,and using the gradually organic renewal. There are many examples that are more successful, such as youth hostels and homestay facilities on Xiang Zi temple street of Xi’an cannot be renovated in a large scale, otherwise the texture of the street will be destroyed.

Before the liberation of China, there were four hundred million compatriots, and now we have 1.3 billion people. Living needs of each one are much higher than before, and the way of living is dierent. So the protection of the historic block, I think it’s a way to do it on a scale or on a layer, it can’t be a big demolition. To be honest, we haven’t found a good method so far, we are still trying,like the protection planning of the three heritage in Hanzhong, some protect more, some will be repaired or rebuilt, and some organic renewal under the condition of protection mechanism, I have a point of view, which probably should not be too sedulous to pursuit of the so-called style coordination, but to consider from the aspect of ecology. There are some buildings built in the “60s and 70s”, and I thought it worked, and it was an evolution of The Times. Now there is a view that the style is incongruous, so it should be dismantled, and I don’t agree with it. Perhaps concerned too much about form and pride, there are many economic and ecological problems behind it. After we’ve taken down a building there will be a lot of rubbish, where to put them? Then build another building and repeat the ecological destruction.Now we have reached the stage of architectural heritage protection in different periods. The tube buildings which built in 60s, it’s shabby but can be used after reformed, but the so-called historical houses were swaying. It is said that the latter must be protected, and the former is the dismantling of the discongruous features. This view is not comprehensive. We need a more comprehensive view,or a more rational view of the essence of a city. In

this regard, we are also exploring how to adapt the way of living in an agricultural society to modern life.

The essence of architecture is to use it. We must integrate modern life into protected buildings. Our present protection is also intended to make the ruins more convenient to use. In the South Gate area of Xi’an, we have actually done some research on urban design, and in fact it is also a study about people activities in this area. Although there are a lot of discordant factors around it, it is a product of social development process, and can’t be decided by us. What we can do is to make it better.

Q4 The Wei river is the mother river of Xi’an, please talk about your opinion of city waterside spaces in Xi’an.

In fact, Xi’an has always been a water shortage city. It’s now a statement of calling it “the mother river”. Originally it was “Eight rivers around Changan”. In fact, it was the moat impressed us more. All the city development is by the water, like seashore or river bank. The urban development of Xi’an, from Xianyang town of Qin on the north bank of Wei river, to Chang’an town of Han and Tang on the south bank, was related to the use and prevention of water.

It is now proposed that Xi’an should crossing the Wei river to develop, thinking over the ramparts and look Xi’an from the view of Qin Mountains.But others have suggested that what would it be if there is no rampart in Xi’an? This shows that development of Xi’an has always been collided by two trends of thought. One is that there are too many ancient ones, the other is lack of modernization.

Now all cities attach great importance to the rivers they depend on, such as the Chan Ba Delta of Xi’an, Wei river, and Fengwei Delta. My attitude is that people cannot win the nature. I have my own views on the “south water to north” engineer. We should follow the rules of the nature. There is no need to build many dams and create a waterfront illusion, just to keep original. Speak of moat, many foreign moats are dry, it represents an original state. So, for the river, I think we should follow the saying of “harmony of the man and nature” from our ancestors. I don’t advocate that there are too many man-made things in the waterfront, take the Duck River in Kyoto for example, the bank of it is a natural state, mud-made football fi eld and basketball fi eld are capable of fl ood. It is a natural sight that there’s no pavilion to decorate it. We should also use the concept of landscape to do urban design.

I have a point of view that nature is superior to man. We describe amazing work as “more exquisite than heaven-made”, but man-made is never better than natural. The river should also be like this, let it release its nature. Plants are also a growing life aesthetics, we don’t have to shape it in an anthropomorphic way, make a flower bed into the image of animals, this is not the praise of life.River is the same concept as well, we have built a museum in Chanba, a Z - shaped building, creeping into the river, construct with the river, the arti fi cial things must be less and exquisite. Now we are over decorate everything, like the “city beautify”campaign before, beautify is dis fi gurement. It’s the same for rivers, so I do not agree with excessive design. Instead of talking about the river in the middle of the city, we must think about the Seine River. It has been built over the generations. This view has always penetrated into all aspects of our city, which is the attitude of design, we must have design everywhere, but it seems that there is no design, no carved traces, this is the highest level of design.

Q5 What’s the feature of Xi’an people’s living habit? How does it efect the formation and usage of city spaces?

I don’t think there’s a big in fl uence. Xi’an is also an immigrant city. It does not have very clear regional characteristics. Some say that the habits of the residents have a great in fl uence on the life style of whole city. I think it’s genes and characters that have great in fl uence on the city. I think living habits, especially modern civilization, change very fast, and people’s habits are homogenized and internationalized. What’s the difference between Vanke in Beijing and Vanke in Xi’an? like the development of major real estate, industrial civilization uni fi ed people’s life style. This way of living does not have much in fl uence on the city.

Of course, life style also includes the mode of working. The concept of time, distance and scale in Xi’an is totally dierent from that in Beijing. The living-working composite like our oce, which is in the “ shop-in-the-front-bed-in-the-back” mode,saving trac time but will cause people’s life not rich enough, too simple, but Xi’an people are still quite like this mode. Yet, it does not seem to be a mainstream. This particular paradigm does not make a dierence to the city.

Q6 You have mentioned about the migrants, how do the migrants and tourists impact the city feature of Xi’an?

This is still very in fl uential. The Xi’an government should regard the tourism industry as an important pillar, and it must certainly care about the evaluation of Xi’an by outsiders. Tourism industry may see a series of Tang style buildings such as Tang Lotus Garden in Xi’an as the target of tourists. As the central city of the country, Xi’an must be positioned with the height of the birthplace of Chinese civilization. It is very natural to fi nd out what we have. This created a series of Tang style products such as Lotus Garden, Huaqing Pool and Datang Huaqing town. Here is the capital of the Tang Dynasty, we just want to see how brilliant the Tang Dynasty is, otherwise we can’t see anything.

The development of a city is definitely not the result of one’s will, but the gathering of the government, residents and designers of the city. I remember that it’s been discussing for a long time that Xi’an is a millennium ancient capital, and we must find a characteristic dynasty that represents Xi’an. Beijing and Nanjing in the Ming and Qing Dynasties are larger than Xi’an, with much more ruins; Xi’an can only fi nd the Tang Dynasty, which is the most prosperous time in China, and we have to make it incisively. It is the pride of Xi’an people,and it also meets the needs of tourism.

Xi’an’s urban positioning has a great in fl uence on the overall urban landscape. This city should be rich and colorful, not only owns the Tang Dynasty,but also owns a series of cultural heritages represented by the pattern of the Ming Dynasty ramparts in Xi’an. We should show every dynasty. The buildings on the Xi’an ramparts are orthodox, with brilliant scale. So I think the development of Xi’an may be biased. It should respect different times instead of only focusing on Han and Tang Dynasties. For example, the reconstruction of the Xida Street in the town is arguable. Originally the Xida Street is in the famous city, but it has a lot of Tang style architecture. This is the “big” of what tourism development is chasing. Only the “big hat” of the Tang Dynasty that can meet the needs. These are all waiting to be summed up.

Q7 Please talk about the Tang-style architectures represented by master Zhang Jinqiu and its influence on the overall style of Xi’an city.

Zhang has played an irreplaceable role in the establishment of urban style and the city protection in Xi’an, which is of great value. Her ideas of architecture and the city really fit in with the development of the city as a whole, making a lot of important contributions to the city and fully realizing some of Liang Sicheng’s ideals. After she arrived in Xi’an, the thought of rampart protection and overall style was realized in Xi’an. Zhang is always a heir of Mr. Liang. This is an important contribution to Xi’an. Including the design of Bell-Drum Tower square we’ve mentioned, Zhang is the first practitioner of the city design, the Bell-Drum Tower square is a very important example of the city design. It has been built for 20 years so far, it is turning into a pleasant urban open space of Xi’an.it not only represent the image of Xi’an, but also the center and the meeting hall of Xi’an.

She has been considered city designing from the perspective of urban design for a long time. For example, the Shanxi Museum, next to the Dayan pagoda, what should the museum re fl ect? It needs a very appropriate language to express the long and splendid history and culture of Shan’xi, which based on the form of Chinese palaces. Last year we held a work exhibition for Zhang in her Museum.It’s been 25 years, but the museum is still very practical. The interior space adapts to the modern exhibition, and it can bring people a magnificent feeling. There is also the three Tang project thirty years ago. Its relationship with the Dayen pagoda and the coordination of the whole regional style is also a valuable creation. You can’t imagine building such a glass wall around the Dayen pagoda.She can embody the artistic conception of traditional space aesthetics and Chinese gardens. Zhang said she made these works at specific locations,which did not mean other works in Xi’an would be the same. There are similar projects that will do this. It is appropriate to adopt this approach in Xi’an’s symbolic nodes, specific conditions and specific building types. Zhang designed the Bell-Drum Tower square in a way, the Changan tower in another, which mainly uses steel structure and glass. Zhang is keeping up with time, she thinks this style is an important milestone for Xi’an to explore urban renewal and urban style protection.Meanwhile, there are many other attempts in Xi’an, such as Liu Kecheng’s works, and of course,some of our projects. After all, architecture must be modernized. It should be used not only to see,but also to adapt to the present way of life and present behavior. For example, the Xi’an municipal government that we designed, oce buildings need ecient, beautiful environment, like making the office in a park, this is an important standard for good oce buildings. Although there are some sloping roofs, but still there are spaces inside the slope roof that is available, without waste. A very important principle in designing our buildings is to exchange the least cost for maximum bene fi t.

Zhang was awarded by the ho Leung Ho Li awards,the Shanxi science and technology progress award,and the highest achievement that the asteroids named after her, which were all recognized by the society for her important contribution to the city and the industry. The Shanxi library, which I worked with Zhang, was very modern without the Tang-style big roof. 20 years have passed, it is still the most representative building on the second ring. Zhang is also adopting some dierent styles.Many people give Zhang a label, which is Tangstyle. In fact, she uses dierent treatments for different subjects and speci fi c locations, and most of the themes of Zhang’s creation are like this, so she has to use it. This is also a very important principle of our urban design, that is to be appropriate. Ten years ago, we have discussed the development of Xi’an with Zhang. She also said that to be diverse and harmonious, and to re fl ect her broad range of creative thinking.

Q8 Please pick a most distinctive place in Xi’an and explain the reasons.

The “distinctive” and “energy” may be connected,to be distinctive and there will be energetic. In Xi’an, I think there are some distinctive sites, but not linked yet. The Bell-Drum Tower is a representative of a classic city center. Then extend to the traditional cultural street of the Beiyuanmen area,representing, folkways. They are the most dynamic places in Xi’an on holidays. In fact, the Bell-Drum tower to the south gate is only 500 meters, the south gate is the most distinctive part Xi’an ramparts, and it’s an interface to welcome the foreign heads of state, it must be a dynamic place. On its east side there is a unique forest of Steles and the gate of Xi’an Academy. So I have been making some attempts, maybe there is a link among the south gate to the stele forest, to the academy gate,the bell tower, to the north courtyard gate and the mosque in the future. This link includes many of the most distinctive and dynamic places in Xi’an.I often think about why heritages in other cities are demolished? It is in the bones of Xi’an that there are the genes of the imperial city. Xi’an has become a government since Song Dynasty, but it still has that state of mind till now. Just as the theme of “Guan Xue” founded by Zhang Zai:“To

stand for nature, to take up the mission for the people, to learn and inherit the saints, and to give peace to the world”, this state of mind has never shown on vulgar people. This is the mind that the city gave to his genes, and the momentum of a capital.

So I think it’s good to make them linked. The urban design we are talking about, or our protection and characterization of the city, we must fi rst fi nd out the point of the city, and also to show them. Originally, the Bell Tower and the Drum Tower of the Bell-Drum Tower square did not connect to each other. By designing the square, the morning bells and evening drums became a city space, and a dynamic space of the city. If these urban heritages that distance less than one kilometer become a series, we can connect the Beiyuanmen area, the Academy gate, the forest of Steles, and so on. This must be a very dynamic area in Xi’an. Now we have punctiform the forest of Steles and the gate of the academy as a cultural tourist attraction, Beiyuanmen area as a center of folk food and culture,and the bell tower as a symbol of typical Ming Dynasty rampart. These features cannot replaced by other places, they have a strong historical culture and diversity, so they need our continuous exploration.

Q9 After talking about the old town of Xi’an as a historical city, please talk about your opinion of Xi’an’s new town construction.

We are also working on this. Our recent project is in the central business district of Xixian New District, which is to explore how cities develop in the future, how to meet the present needs, and not to lose their cultural meanings. I do not want to mention the style. It is too dicult to make the style of Xixian New District consistent with the old town of Xi’an. We often pursue the appearance of architecture and city rather than the essence, and the form is always the appearance. We are thinking about the future of the city and try to explore a new way. It’s not a separate design, but a cluster design after the design of the city. The urban design in this area was made by Liu Taige, and then dierent architects were hired to design the individual plot,but they were designed strictly under the strict control of the urban design.

Practically, it is very important for us to pursue group-win instead of individual outstanding. All of our architects have followed the shape of the square spontaneously. Maybe Xi’an has a gene

of square. It is a square city, with houses and everything in square. This is the temperament and character of a city. We stick on the square, but squares are like magic cubes that can change into many forms. At the same time, we attach great importance to the traffic of the whole modern city. In the underground, all the four blocks are hollowed out to form an underground ring corridor. In this way, the ground space is completely continuous to prevent the people and cars on the ground be mixed. We want to be a city that is truly serving people, there are many spaces that people can interact, feel pleasant and interesting. There is also a museum about Yu Yoren, but it is completely a house built according to the ancient wood structure. It has a strong contrastive conflict with the surrounding, and it is very storytelling. Almost all of the buildings are connected, with a pedestrian space on the second fl oor. Only under the condition of our cluster design can we really focus on the urban space. If we only mind our own businesses,like current development methods, we can only focus on ourselves and give the rest to the cities.So we took an opposite approach, to create urban public space and a space for people.

Do we need to be more modernized around Xi’an?I think there dose not have any problem. In fact,Some of our de fi nition of what good space is and what modernization is are similar, and this is also the characteristic of globalization. Globalization is likely to lose some regionalization. But the mother town of Xi’an is here, cannot be replaced by others elsewhere. Of course, there are many kinds of exploration of modernization, they form a colorful city together, this is normal. I once wrote an article called “all roads lead to the same goal”, such as the origin of cities in Rome or the urban changes of Changan of Han dynasty. Another example is the courtyard, Islam has studied and made great contributions to the courtyard. Different regional culture is based on the dierences of human adaptation, including scale, national culture and so on.I think we can eectively protect the ancient city and heritages, other region can do anything according to our understanding of the city and the future.They need to be modernized and internationalized as well, and not to pursue the regionalization too much. Unless it’s really close to our heritage, or I think the solutions are negotiable, as long as we respect and awe to the heritages.