藤本壮介访谈——窗的试行

YKK AP株式会社窗研究所 采访/Interviewed by Window Research Institute，YKK AP Inc.

辛梦瑶 译/Translated from Japanese by XIN Mengyao

司马蕾 校/Proofread by SIMA Lei

藤本壮介访谈
——窗的试行

YKK AP株式会社窗研究所 采访/Interviewed by Window Research Institute，YKK AP Inc.

辛梦瑶 译/Translated from Japanese by XIN Mengyao

司马蕾 校/Proofread by SIMA Lei

印象中关于窗的体验、勒·柯布西耶的“窗”与瓦楞纸板上的洞

我记得读大学四年级时，我用1/50的比例临摹了勒·柯布西耶的母亲之家的平面图。当时是一边量出各个尺寸，一边按照自己的理解画的。那个住宅中，横向的窗互相连在一起，一口气横穿各个房间。一个窗户就把外面所有的风景和内部的各种生活衔接、融合到一起，当时我觉得很棒。

此外，我去欧洲一些地方时，看到城堡上厚厚的墙壁中被挖出了供向外射击用的空间，而端头的部位则开了小窗，我很喜欢那种凹洞里充满了光线的感觉。当时给我留下深刻印象的是，窗不是作为一个单纯的物体存在，而是伴随着某种空间。

然后说说我小时候的记忆吧。那时候我很喜欢钻到瓦楞纸箱里，还在箱子上挖个洞，然后我就能看见外面了。那个地方既能保护我，又让我看到外面的光景，让我特别开心，那可能就是我自己关于窗的最初的体验吧。另外，因为我住的是乡下，就常常在林子里一边拨开竹子或小树一边玩。我周围被那些东西保护起来，但也能同时看见许多别的东西，还会亲自开辟自己要走的路。呆在瓦楞纸箱里和在树林里玩是两种对立的情形，但却仿佛都会产生某种本能的快感，或者觉得舒服。

1.2 N住宅/House N（摄影/Photos: Iwan Baan）

“窗”的重叠形成的空间的扩张

我自己的作品中，窗最有特点的是N住宅。窗的重要作用是把内部与外部分离或连接起来，而这是定义建筑的最主要因素之一。我当时就是想挑战这个最关键的部分。

N住宅由3个箱体一个套一个形成层叠状，于是形成了窗外有窗、更外侧还有窗的形式。总之我把窗做得很彻底，虽然作为物质的窗是存在的，但仍稍微超越了那些物质性，我试图从窗与窗之间的空间重叠中创造一种类似“空气感”i的东西。整个建筑都变得像窗一样，而窗这样东西本身却几乎消失了，全都成了空间本身。当建筑建成后我发现，因为向窗外看去还有窗框，随着光线变化，两层箱体之间的空间进深也会变得不明朗起来。

当人们能清晰地看到墙上的纹理时，他们可以很明确地判断出距离，而如果光把它照得模模糊糊的，从一个窗到它前面的窗的距离就会变得拿不准。因此会感觉建筑整体的体积感似乎随时间而变化。当进到那个空间里时，我觉得自己对实际大小的感觉一下子不受限制了，建筑似乎在不断扩大，这让我特别吃惊。当时觉得这个由窗形成的空间整体简直在跃动，那种感觉比我之前想的还要有趣。

在N住宅里，只有中间那层箱体上的窗装了玻璃。对于不同体量的箱体，墙厚都一样的话人会觉得不舒服，因此随着箱体变小，墙也变薄了。但只有中间那层箱体的窗有明显的玻璃细节的话并不好，于是我们费了好大力气让玻璃能整个嵌进墙体，形成没有窗框的窗。不过中间那层箱体上还需要能开启的窗，我们就设计了图纸，制造了能整扇开启的粗木框窗，并让纱窗也藏在窗体里面。所以对于这种窗，窗的存在似乎不那么明显，反倒是嵌在墙上的画框一样的木窗框更引人注目了。

漂浮着“窗”的家

NA住宅的结构是5cm宽的特别细的柱子，而木窗框的进深大约为10cm，如果要装这种窗，窗的存在感会比结构框架还要强。通常意义上来说，这意味着细节收拾得不干净，但这种交接方式反倒让我觉得很有趣。窗框自由自在地漂浮着，被它们松松垮垮地包裹起来的地方就成了家。某种意义上这是把窗进行了象征性的处理，另一种意义上也可以说是处理得很粗糙。通常，空间的轮廓和窗的位置会协调一致，但让它们相互错开并移动、再形成场所，是一件很有意思的事。

3 藤本壮介/Sou Fujimoto（摄影/Photos: YKK AP株式会社窗研究所/Window Research Institute，YKK AP Inc.）

Experience related to window in wy impression，"windows" in Le Corbusier's works，and a hole in a corrugated board

I remember drawing the site plan of House for Mother by Le Corbusier at a scale of 1/50 in my senior year at college.I did that by measuring the sizes first and then drawing based on my own understanding.The horizontal windows of that house are connected together，crossing through every room of the house.I was amazed by how one window linked up and integrated all the exterior views with the interior life.

Besides，when I go to some places in Europe，I saw those spaces formed by digging in the thick walls of castles used for shooting，and usually a small window was opened at the end.I like the feeling of being full of light in the cave.I was particularly impressed by the fact that instead of merely being an object，the window is accompanied by certain kind of space.

Now I would like to talk about my memory from childhood.At that time，I liked hiding into a box made of corrugated boards and cutting out a hole in the box so that I could see the outside.I felt protected in that space，and could also have a view of the outside at the same time，making me feel really happy.And that could be my very first experience about the window.Besides，since I lived in the countryside，I used to tread aside bamboo or small trees.I was protected by things surrounded，and at the same time I could see a lot of other things and create my own path.Though staying in a corrugated box and playing in the woods are two contrasted activities，both of which brought me some kind of instinctive pleasant sensation or comfortable feeling.

Expansion of space formed by overlapping of "windows"

Among my works，the windows of House N are most distinctive.The function of the window is to separate or connect the exterior and interior space，one of the fundamental elements defning a building.I was trying to challenge this most vital part in that design.

House N is in a stack shape formed by three box constructions one inside another，thus before a window is another window，and another before that one.I was thorough about window，so the windows exist as objects.But it was a bit more than "window as a mere object"，what I considered is a somewhat "air like"ithing created by the overlapping of spaces between window and window.The whole construction is like a window，and the windows almost disappear by becoming space itself.When the construction was completed，I found that because there is a window frame before a window，the spatial depth between two boxes becomes unclear along with the changing lights.

When people can clearly see the texture on the wall，they can make the right judgment about the distance to the wall.But if the light blurs the texture，the distance from one window to another becomes indecisive.When entering that space，I felt unrestricted over the actual sizes of things，and the construction seems constantly expanding，which surprised me to a great extent.At the moment，the whole space created by windows is almost bouncing，even more interesting than I have imagined.

In House N，only the windows in the middle box-shape construction are installed with glasses.To different sizes of box-shape constructions，the same thickness of wall will make people feel uncomfortable，so the wall is thinner and the box smaller.But the effect is not good if the details of the window glass on the middle box are too obvious，so we made great efforts to install the glass delicately without frames.But since we need some openable windows in the central box，we designed a graph and created thick wooden frames in the wall that can be easily opened，with the screen windows hidden inside carefully.As a result，the existence of windows is not so obvious，but the wooden frames in the wall are more eye-catching.

House with floating "windows"

The structure of House NA is formed by 5cmwide pillars，which is quite thin，and the depth of the window frame is about 10 cm if in wood，meaning that if windows are installed，the existence of windows is stronger than that of the structural frame.In a normal sense，it means rough details，but this way of connection makes me feel interested.The window frames foat freely，and the places they loosely wrap up become home.To a certain extent，it is a symbolic disposal of the window； while in other senses，it is rough.Normally，the outline of a space collocates with the positions of windows in a regular pattern； but it is interesting to form a site by mismatching and mixing their positions.

Moreover，since none of the foorboards is large enough to be regarded as the foor，the corner where a floorboard tightly sticks with a window almost forms a window-side space or even an alcove with another foorboard.What I considered was the slight disparity between the quality sensation of each individual site and that of the whole space enclosed by windows.

In House NA，if there are more windows as objects，I think it will be connected with the life scale of home.The size of windows is exactly the size of life.If making the size of windows into one for ordinary life，the thin floorboard would be highlighted，forming a distinctive contrast to the window."Why the window looks so large"，with such a kind of window，an unbelievable relationship will be created between the window and the floor.In addition，in order to make the window with wooden frame more like a window，we used pre-made wooden window frames that were covered with the delicate uneven textures of ordinary frames.Compared with those frames as clean as abstract sculptures，these frames，which may make people blurt out "this is a window"，are a better choice for this project.Our design is only clipping the windowonto the wall，so it was well managed even for the difficult places connecting windows and pillars.As shown in House N and House NA，I'd like to choose totally different methods in the design of window based on different conditions.I think either an appropriate balance or an intentional unbalance is closely related with the architectural experiences.

此外，因为各块地面都没有大到能称作地面的程度，因此地面与窗相交的地方居然形成了一个窗边空间，如果再有一块地面的话，就会形成凹室一样的地方。我当时考虑的是，单独看各个场所时的质感能与建筑整体仿佛被窗围起来的质感有微妙的差异。

NA住宅中，如果再多一点作为物质存在的窗，我想就能与家的生活尺度衔接起来了。窗的大小，恰恰就是生活尺度的大小吧。假如把窗的尺寸做成通常生活的大小，小尺度的地面就会显得更为突出，和窗形成鲜明对比。窗和地面之间会出现不可思议的关系，比如会让人觉得“窗为什么看起来这么大呢”。此外，为了特意让木窗框的窗看起来更像窗，我们使用了成品窗，上边带有成品木窗框常见的细碎的凹凸。相比于抽象雕塑一样的、光洁的窗框，让人脱口而出“这就是窗呀”的那种，可能在这个建筑中会更好。我们的设计仅仅是让窗卡在墙上，窗与柱子的交接处等重要的部分也进行了设计处理。正如在N住宅和NA住宅中体现的，我会根据具体情况完全改变对窗的处理方式。我认为，某种恰当的平衡亦或有意为之的不平衡、都与会引起怎样的建筑体验息息相关。

4.5 NA住宅/House NA（摄影/Photos: Iwan Baan）

“窗”能限定关系，故也能制造“预感”

武藏野美术大学图书馆的书架从平面看呈漩涡状，在某几圈上开有比通常的窗更大的洞。虽然是个被书架围起来的地方，却开了一些洞口，人们会说，“不知道是怎么回事，那个地方好像一直在扩大呢”，图书馆中的世界因此得到了扩张。假如有人在这里因为搞不清全貌而兴奋不已地说，“再稍微去那边看看吧”，我会觉得很好。

也就是说，在未知世界漫步后终于找到想要的书的感觉很有趣，我就采用了与通常的功能性、效率性相反的漩涡状这种稍微不那么有效率的结构形式。而在这种结构上开很大的洞是非常重要的，人们不知道空间会延伸到哪里，看不到头，因此脑中预感的空间大小可能会超越建筑的实际大小。我想，那种感觉应该正是建筑体验中十分重要的一部分吧。

墙壁上开的洞创造出的预感，正是由物质形成的建筑所产生的体验反而超越了物质的范例。从这个意义上看，窗正因为限定了某种关系，才创造出一种更加宽泛的关系。让人透过玻璃清楚地看到一切，或者使人不能看到所有的东西，这两种窗的使用方式的差异正在于此。

不断重建建筑的魅力

我们在做建筑设计时，会根据想法的不同，有时这样设计，有时那样设计，因此我每次都会想：“哎，说起来窗到底是什么来着？”原本设计建筑的时候，我也都想从“说起来建筑到底是什么来着？”这点出发去思考。就像早上起来后先索性全都忘光、然后说“今天又要从1开始想吗”的那种乐趣一样（笑）。在推进项目的过程中，建筑中最重要的部分会一一显现，我们的工作则是将其魅力进行重建。于是，“照这种想法设计下去的话，建筑就和至今为止的不同了吧”，或者“窗也不能叫窗了吧”，不得不这么想的情况很多。我大概也喜欢每次都思考这些吧。

面对多样的“窗”，确定自己作品的位置

窗具有内侧与外侧两个面，在建筑师看来，这种在里面时能通过窗看外面、在外面时则能与内部相连的两面性是有趣的。但同时，在某种意义上，“窗”还是与历史无关的一种存在。也就是说，虽然有各式各样的窗，但不管让谁来看，窗就是窗。

在风土不同的地区，窗的样子也大多不同。因此即便想象得出从前的人如何与窗发生关联，在当代可能也演化为一种不同的形式，或者不同文化的窗之间出现有趣的融合。拥有大量的历史、文化、风土的背景，正是窗的有趣之处吧。我想正因为窗具有某种程度的背景，才能让人对它产生反应，或者感觉到不协调之类的。

"Windows" define the relationships，so they also create a sense of "anticipation"

The arrangement of bookshelves in Musashino Art University Library on plan is in a spiral form，and holes larger than regular windows are opened in several circles of this spiral.Though enclosed by bookshelves，there are several openings in the space，and people would say，"I don't know why，but that place seems constantly expanding"，so does the world in library.If someone expresses the excitement that "Let's go and check out again in that place" because he feels unclear about the whole picture of the place，I would be pleased.

In other words，I feel it would be interesting to fnd the book after wondering in an unknown world，so I used the spiral structure，which is considered as not so efficient，compared with functional and efciency orientations.It is very important to open large holes in this type of structure，people would feel unsure where the space extends toward and the space seems endless to them，as a result，the scale they anticipate in the space would probably exceed its actual scale.I believe the feeling should be an essential part of the architectural experience.

Holes in the wall create anticipations，which is a typical example of embodying experience within a construction that otherwise exceeds the actual objects.From this sense，window can define a certain kind of relationship as an object，and thus can generate a broader relationship to a certain extent.In some places，people can see everything through glasses，but in other places，people are unable to see something，I think the difference between these two kinds of places lies in this.

Constantly reproducing the glamour of architecture

The architectures we designed vary extensively based on our different ideas at the time，so each time I would wonder，"so，what exactly is a window？" In fact，at the beginning of designing a building，I would prefer starting with the contemplation of "so，what exactly is architecture？" It is like the interesting feeling of forgetting everything in the morning after waking up，and wondering "so，should I start from 1 again today？"（laugh） During the implementation process of a project，the most important parts of the architecture will emerge one after another，and our work is to reproduce its glamour.Thus，"if I follow this idea，the architecture would be different to other architecture by now，" or "window would be more than so-called window，" this kind of situation would appear more and more.I probably like thinking about this kind of things.

Establish the position of my works before diversified "windows"

A window has two sides，inside and outside；people can see the outside through the window when they are inside the house，and the outside is connected to the inside via the window.This duality is quite interesting to architects.But at the same time，"window" is a kind of existence irrelevant to history.In other words，though there are different kinds of windows，a window is window no matter who sees it.

The appearances of windows change according to local conditions.By imagining how windows were related to people before，，interesting fusion could be made between windows from different cultures in different forms at modern time.The variety of historical，cultural，and custom backgrounds is right the reason why window is interesting.I feel that because of such background，the design of windows may cause peoples' reactions，including a sense of discordance.

For example，it is ok if the window is ordinary，but when three windows overlap with each other，some people would say，"It looks a little odd，doesn't it？" But if it generates a certain kind of meaningful experience，it would be very pleasing，and after allinteresting.Windows as a whole with diversity are particularly interesting.When designing windows，I wouldn't seek for creating "the coolest window"；instead，I prefer the idea that the construction needs certain kind of window，so I made the window.Though similar things were made in history，I am still fond of making a variation.

6 武藏野美术大学图书馆/Musashino Art University Library（摄影/Photos: Iwan Baan）

比如，如果是普通的窗也就罢了，三扇窗叠在一起的话，就会有人说“怎么感觉怪怪的呢”。不过如果能因此产生某种有意义的体验，反倒挺让人高兴的，毕竟很有意思。窗这种东西，还是具有多样性的窗的整体比较有趣。我自己设计窗时也不会去追求所谓“最炫酷的窗”，而是如果我在某个建筑中进行某种思考的话，就会相应产生某种窗的做法，我喜欢的是即便历史上可能有过类似的东西、但却又产生了一个变种的方式。

然后那种思考方式下的设计不断累积后，未来的人们会想，“以前居然真有过在这种情况下思考这种事的傻子啊，但要是现在也那么干，说不定会挺有意思的”，如果窗的整体能那样逐渐丰富起来的话就太好了。

空间的理想状态与“窗”

7.8 2013年蛇形画廊/Serpentine Gallery 2013（摄影/Photos: Iwan Baan）

前段时间建成的位于伦敦的蛇形画廊，虽然几乎全是半室外的空间，没有窗也没有屋顶，却可以说是达成了我自己关于外部与内部空间连接方式的某种梦想或者理想状态。这一建筑虽然也有像墙一样的部分，但由于是用很细的框架做成的，能透过它看见一点前面的地方，而随着框架渐渐变得稀疏，就能看见更多周围的绿化，这种构造就可以称之为窗了，但人也可以从中通过。当框架又变得密集时，构造则又更接近于墙了。这种似乎是由于空气厚度的差异带来的感官体验，让建筑融入到了周边的环境中。而这种可以称之为内外空间的关联方式的东西，与我最开始讲的树林里的体验挺接近的。

不过也并非全要像那样激进，看起来像窗的窗也很好。我使用成品窗框的时候，会选择那种真的有成品的感觉的、不炫酷但有窗本来样子的窗。

最近许多制造商都在满足构件性能的同时，努力把窗框做得更小。那种窗框虽然也有能用到的地方，但要是也能保留一点以前的那种所谓稍微俗一点的铝制窗框就好了（笑）。我在北海道的医疗设施中就全都用了分别订购的用于普通大楼的有窗框的推拉窗。我想让那些窗框看起来尽量不像是订做的，而像是过去看到过的窗被从许多地方带过来并拼到了一起。

从那种意义上看，正如刚刚说到的，各种历史性的、文化性的价值观一直在塑造着窗，这种情况一旦结束于某种潮流的话就会很可惜。说到以后类似内外空间的边界这样的东西要如何发展，我认为像蛇形画廊一样，建筑能根据物质密度的不同灵活地与周围环境融为一体的情况就很好。

然而，这就像N住宅的设计一样，在创造了许多窗之后、窗自身却几乎消失了一样，形成由多种进深将自身包围起来的场所。N住宅是混凝土墙建造的，可以说是个普通的盒子。墙上虽然开的也是普通的窗，空间体验却非常灵活，伸缩自如，有一种稍微超越了材料或形状的感觉，很不可思议。要不要在建筑中留下窗的形状？墙壁是不是一定要设计成四方形的？建筑的体验原本就应该是自由自在的，这正是N住宅带给人们的惊喜。从这种意义上看，要说10年、100年后的窗会变成什么样，也就等于讨论10年、100年后建筑会变成什么样了。□（日文原文由YKK AP 株式会社窗研究所提供。官方网址：http：//madoken.jp/en）

译注

i 艺术表现中指通过间接信息使人们感觉其存在的方式，摄影艺术中指使二维照片看起来仿佛三维一样立体。

With the accumulation of designs under this concept，people in the future would wonder，"there was actually such an idiot having this idea under that condition，but it is surprisingly interesting using the idea here"，or something like that.It would be great indeed if the whole of windows gets gradually diversifed like that.

The ideal condition of space and "window"

For the Serpentine Gallery completed earlier in London，though almost all the space of the project is semi-outdoor with no windows or roofs，to me，it realizes a dream or reaches an ideal status of the connection mode between exterior and interior space.In other words，though there are walllike structures，they are made of extremely thin framework with relevance to the front.And when the framework gets more scattered，people can see more green surrounded，then it can be called as window now，and people can also go through it.And when the framework is thicker，the structure is more like wall again.This difference originated from thickness of the structure blends the construction into the surrounding environment.The connection mode between the outside and the inside of the project is quite like what I experienced in the woods that I described at the beginning.

But I'm not saying that all the design should make breakthroughs like that，as windows that look like window are also good.When I use pre-made window frames，I would choose those with a feeling of truly finished，not cool but with an authentic appearance of window.

Recently，many manufacturers put efforts of making the window frame smaller with wellfunctional components.Though useful in some cases，it would be good if they store some of those tacky window frames made of aluminum（laugh）.The windows of the medication facilities I designed in Hokkaido are in fact ordinary sliding windows for buildings，which were ordered from different places.I tried to achieve the effect that the window frames do not look like customized，but rather are brought from various places and put together.

In that sense，as I said earlier，diversified historical and cultural views of value are molding the form of windows，and it would be a pity if this ends at some trends.As for how things like boundary between interior and exterior space develop，I think the design like the Serpentine Gallery，in which uneven density realizes a fexible form of boundary between the interior space and the surrounding environment，is a good example.

However，like House N in which windows almost disappear after many windows are created，what I am doing are sites enclosed by various depths.House N is made of concrete walls，and can be described as a regular box.Though regular windows are opened on House N，the spatial experience is fairly fexible and elastic.An incredible feeling that surpasses the materials or forms is thus easily formed.Should the form of windows be reserved in the construction or not？ Must the shape of wall be designed as square？ The architectural experience ought to be free，as the surprises that House N brought to people.In this sense，the discussion of what window would change into after 10 or 100 years is almost equal to the discussion of what architecture would develop into after 10 or 100 years.□（The original Japanese text is provided by Window Research Institute，YKK AP Inc.The ofcial website is http://madoken.jp/en）

Note

i In an artistic representation，it refers to the method of making people feel its existence through indirect information，in photography art，it refers to the skill of making a two-dimensional photo look like threedimensional.

Interview with Sou Fujimoto: The Attempt on Window