访谈：莫里斯 · 尼奥

访谈：莫里斯 · 尼奥

导报：您的《看不见我悄悄溜走了》紧接着《独立自主与标新立异》，哪一个是您最成熟的作品？如果不得不在您的职业生涯中找到您的研究主题，可以说所有的主题都已经出现在您的作品中，而不是不断出现的？我们可以谈论一个不断发展的语法吗？

莫里斯·尼奥：你可能知道，1988年我翻译了让·鲍德里亚的《美国》（1986年出版）。这是一本充满了琐碎而爆炸性的、半梦半醒、半新闻评论的书，一本伪装成一个看似无目的随想炸弹的书。让·鲍德里亚他的《冷酷的记忆》（1987出版）中对《美国》这本书进行了回顾：对于书《美国》只有一个办法：一个特定的时间按一定数量收集的片段、笔记和故事，必须有一个解决方案把他们串联成，不进行任何添加或删除（包括最平庸的）一个必要的整体：在表面之下，支配他们的收集非常必要。假定这是唯一的和最好的素材，因为它是由相同的思维秘密编排的，并假设作为相同的痴迷部分所隐藏的都有意义，并且重构问题必须有解决方案。作品确定，一切都已经存在，只有找到解决问题的钥匙就够了。当我读到这一点时，我就要毕业了，但直到许多年之后，我才开始领悟那一句话的精髓。顿时我如释重负，就是连贯性的问题。毕竟，对于连贯性的欲望无处不在、伸手可及，尤其是在作家、艺术家、建筑师等的圈子中更是如此。因为如果你不设法处理一个连贯的作品，那你是什么啊？正如鲍德里亚，在某一点上，我开始想知道所有这些不同和所有的太多样化项目，由一个（几个）人完成的无与伦比的视频制作，无与伦比的文本，无与伦比的图形设计，无与伦比的建筑都有着共同的点。一个局外人无法理解。至少这是很好的想象，那种无法实现的感觉开始折磨我。大多数建筑师都设法建立一个美丽连贯的风格，而我的每一个项目似乎都在抹去前一个项目的记忆和印象。就好像是你不断地燃烧你所有建筑、电影、图形和文本的船。幸运的是，现在的连贯性的重要性不再困扰我了。在写了《独立自主与标新立异》内容之后，但实际上已经在1988年（《美国》荷兰翻译版出现后10年）编写《你有权保持沉默》中就有了。我明白在风格、形式和明确表达中找不到连贯性，但可以在方法、结构和含蓄表达中可以找到。这也正是概念如“主题”和“编码”之间的确切区别。在《独立自主与标新立异》中，我反对他们互相对立。设计一个主题的或隐喻，或故事依据，总是针对一个外部的连贯性，而设计编码的依据时，针对的是内部的连贯性，不是直接可见的连贯性。设计编码依据无法在机构上、因果关系上或明确的方法上完成。这个过程是异想天开的、直观的、冲动的和含蓄的。因此，你不能说一个进化，因为没有发展；设计总是在那里。它在那里等着你，尽管设计的过程需要很多年。所有你需要做的是找到设计和解开其编码。所有这些项目可以如此不同，因为他们有相同的意图和动机。

导报：你的建筑实践主要发生在荷兰，荷兰一直是令人关注的建筑实验室之一。一般来说，你可以列出建筑设计中的一些确切的荷兰特点吗？在他们当中，你最关心的是哪些特点，并能识别出自己？

莫里斯·尼奥：我想、我希望，是想要区分的愿望。“分离”我指破坏、拙劣模仿、嘲笑、激进；所有应用于开创新基础的方法以创造新的可能性，打开大门，而不是关闭大门。作为这一战略的一个例子，你可以看看题为火皇帝帝的研究，在这个问题上可以看到火皇帝帝的形象。我们已经研究了食物在城市公共领域中的作用。食品和饮料的补给往往是走出房子进入城市的一个理由。每个人每天都必须吃饭喝水。对于某些人来说，这种日常的购买，烹饪和饮食，甚至成为一种仪式。我们需要的所有这些惯例和现状把我们紧密联系在一起，所以食物的亲密关系和文化的丰富性变得更清晰可见。这是公共和私人生活可以相互极好容忍的地方。我们已经讨论了食品供应商和供应商的空间提供者，并与他们在一起，我们制定了十种从非常简单到更复杂的、从非赢利的到商业上的和从薄利到利润丰厚的模型。

我们的建议，无论是市场大厅的设计，还是种植果树的计划，他们总是在公共和私人之间的区域进行精确的操作。例如商场有私有化和合理化的公共空间的特点，我们用我们的模型来给空间不同的面孔。在公共空间，由于其通用性，失去了城市居民的参与，我们引进当地亲切感。

其中的一个模型是火皇帝，鹿特丹市中心的新面貌。火皇帝会是公共生活的支点。没有人能逃离这个贪婪的建筑，白天和黑夜凝视任何靠近它的东西：天真的游客和经验丰富的老饕、苍白的土豆和新鲜的香菜、驯养的鸽子和活鱿鱼、邋遢的市场摊位和高级餐厅、衣衫不整的音乐家和色情服务、鹿特河水和女招待香味淡去的香水。一切都被消化，推进和再次铲出，但是已经在高压下进行了实质再造。因为它是新的直达市场容纳火皇帝的大厅。每个人都有东西要找，每个人和东西都准备好了，要对抗火帝的厨房的热。这就是城市沸腾的地方，人们沿着在异国风味的菜肴的蒸汽前行的地方。

火皇帝里面没有透明通风的大厅，而是一个大的吞食机，肠道激发的享乐纠结的空间。提供的食物的令人眼花缭乱的多样性，体现在室内设计的节日精神。这好像是市场本身已经被所有的各民族风格的内饰所充实丰满。一个老掉牙的德国表现主义的空间正在被一种朦胧的泰国新时代间空间所替换。市场大厅来者不拒，食用另一种文体的绝技之后打薄嗝。火皇帝位于斯坦格，在战争爆发前，曾是鹿特丹最神秘的地方之一，但现在看起来荒凉而失落。这就是为什么我们把不必要的大运河进入室内，散落着火热的舢板和著名的黑洞—入口到“格罗特市场”下的运河被重新开放，这样市场大厅有了水平面入口。转动它，你可以说，火皇帝内部在水中延续，所以战前的饥饿城市，那深不可测的暴饮暴食的斯坦格，可以满足了。改善的外部市场通过火皇帝改变成运河上新浮动市场，可以尝到了运河上小舢板上的食物流的秘密。

我喜欢以不常规的方式调查主题，从不同的角度收集所有的片段。我不知道这种设计政策是否可以被称为典型的荷兰，但我相信我不是唯一一个有这样的感觉的人。

当然，在荷兰不是所有更新项目都是同样成功，但我更喜欢（在这件事上我有话要说）询问失败的项目，而不是一个“成功”的建筑这个或那个问题。

作品：火皇帝

导报：您的项目似乎来自一个强大的为项目提供抽象品质的概念矩阵。他们赋予景观的关系，还是赋予自然环境的关系？我们应该说，在您的作品中，自然环境只是发生，不影响项目？

莫里斯·尼奥：所有的项目，与你的想法相反，都与上下相关联。对我来说，上下文和代码是两个关键的概念。但是，如果你的意思是说，项目不适应环境，你是正确的。他们不把上下文为一个环境或背景对待，但作为一个对手，另一个球队的队员，你必须解决的问题。是在上下文和代码之间，在环境和项目之间建立紧张的唯一方法。在这种紧张关系中，作为一个用户或路人，你可以获得经验。也许这就是为什么，对于你来说，他们似乎是“抽象的”。

导报：你在建筑实践中必须面对的最大的困难是什么？（与客户打交道、政府机关、结构问题、灵感）另一方面，完美的项目需要完成哪种要求？

莫里斯·尼奥：这个问题很难回答，因为项目与项目之间会有所不同。问题也会从意想不到的角度突然出现。但有两个常见的问题。第一个问题是开发商，开发商的承包商，他们已经成为建筑师的最大的敌人。作为未来的用户和客户的代表，他们服务的共同点，并扼杀所有的可能性和所有可能的萌芽状态的新的计划或生活形式。第二问题咨询机构，作为项目经理代理接管调试机构，由于项目经理缺乏调试知识。这些项目经理的唯一目标是按时和预算内完成项目。这当然是好的，但它完全忽略了建筑的文化方面。项目经理也没有能力给你信任。甚至也不允许他，因为不信任建筑师欺诈或类似的，是项目经理的任务。然而，信任始终是一个真正的好项目的基础。

导报：你在建筑实践中必须面对的最大的困难是什么？（与客户打交道、政府机关、结构问题、灵感）另一方面，完美的项目需要完成哪种要求？

莫里斯·尼奥：这很简单。建筑学如果不是必需的也是重要的。因为它与地心引力绑定，并能够体现这个绑定结合。像素或顶点做不到。除了一些自然的山之外，建筑是外化引力的最佳媒介。看看你们的教堂和宫殿：多么强大的吸能显示，地心引力多么美妙，地心多么什么艳丽。我个人认为，建筑和重力之间的结合是感性空间的秘密。虚拟的一切都是无效的、膨胀的、不受影响的。一切真实的都是精力充沛的、至关重要的、致命的。像素和顶点是不性感的，也不是感性的。整个所谓的“性、政治和经济”领域的所谓虚拟“优势”，都是一个无聊的、呆板的混乱。我宁愿走在街上或在一个建筑内，而不是在网络空间中。你可以说，建筑学只是当今越来越重要，我们不得不精确布置建筑，作为一种媒介，作为一种手段，而不是寻找轻质的，透明的，瘦小的，干燥的和民主的，而是沉重的，不透明的，这具有充分鲁本斯特征，精力充沛的和主宰一切的。

作品：令人惊奇的鲸颚

WAR： Your book Unseen I SIipped Away opens with ‘Sovereignty & SinguIarity’， which is one of your most mature essays. If you had to trace up your research themes during your career， couId you say that aII the themes were aIready present in your works rather than they appeared time after time？ Can we speak about an evoIving grammar？

Maurice Nio： As you probably know， in 1988 I translated Jean Baudrillard’s book Amérique （1986）. It is a book full of small but explosive， half dream-like， half journalistic observations， a book disguised as a seemingly unaimed mental fragmentation bomb. In Cool Memories （1987） Baudrillard looks back on this book： ‘’For America， only one method： given a certain number of fragments， notes and stories collected over a given time， there must be a solution which integrates them all， including the most banal， into a necessary whole， without adding or removing any： the very necessity which， beneath the surface， presided over their collection. Making the supposition that this is the only material and the best， because it is secretly ordered by the same thinking， and assuming that everything conceived as part of the same obsession has a meaning and that there must necessarily be a solution to the problem of reconstituting it. The work starts out from the certainty that everything is already there and it will be sufficient simply to find the key.’’

When I read this， I was graduating， but it was not until many years later that the essence of that statement started to dawn on me. And immediately an enormous weight fell off my shoulders- the weight of coherence. After all， the desire for coherence is everywhere and always tangible， especially within the circle of writers， artists， architects etc. Because what is it that you are if you cannot even manage to build a coherent oeuvre？ Just like Baudrillard， at a certain point I started to wonder what all those different， all too diverse projects- incomparable video productions，incomparable texts， incomparable graphic designs， incomparable buildings- made by （or around） one person， had in common. An outsider cannot make any sense of it. At least that is very well imaginable， and that feeling of being unpursued started to gnaw at me. Where most architects have managed to build a beautifully coherent style， with me every project seems to erase the memory and the image of the previous one. As if you are constantly working on burning all your architectural， cinematic， graphic and textual boats. Fortunately， now the weight of coherence does not bother me anymore. After writing the text ‘Sovereignty & Singularity’， but actually already during the production of the book You Have the Right to Remain Silent in 1998 （ten years after the appearance of the Dutch translation of Amérique） I understood that coherence could not be found in style， form and the explicit， but in method， structure and the implicit. That is also precisely the difference between notions such as ‘theme’ and ‘code’. In ‘Sovereignty & Singularity’ I have opposed them against each other. To design on the basis of a theme- or metaphor， or story- is always aimed at an external coherence， while designing on the basis of a code is aimed at an internal coherence，a coherence that is not directly visible. To design on the basis of a code cannot be done in a structural， causal or explicit way. The process is whimsical， intuitive， impulsive， implicit. You can therefore not speak of an evolution because there is no development； the design was always there. It was there waiting for you， even though the process of designing can take many years. All you need to do is to find the design and decode its code. All these projects can thus be so different because they share the same intention and motive.

WAR： Your architecturaI practice takes pIace mostIy within the NetherIands that keep on being one of the most interesting architecturaI Iaboratory. In generaI， can you outIine some characters of undoutbfuIIy dutchness in architecturaI design？ Among them， which are those characters that you care mostIy of and in which you can recognize yourseIf？

Maurice Nio： I think， I hope， the desire to detach. And with ‘detach’ I mean to disrupt， to parody， to ridicule， to radicalise；all methods that are applied to break new ground， to create new possibilities， to open doors instead of closing them. As an example of this strategy you may look to the research entitled the Fire Emperor whose images can be seen in this issue. We have done research into the role that food plays in the urban public domain. The supply of food and drink are often a reason to go out of the house， into the city. Everybody has to eat every day. For some， this daily routine of buying，cooking and eating has even become a ritual. All these routines and actualities we want to bring closely together， so the intimacy and cultural richness of the food becomes clearer， more visible. That is where the public and the private life can tolerate each other wonderfully. We have talked to food suppliers and providers of space and together with them we drew up ten models varying from very simple to more complex， from non-profit to commercial， from lean to fat.

Our proposals， whether that is for the design of a market hall or for the plan for planting fruit trees， they always operate exactly on that area between public and private. Where for example shopping malls have the character to privatise and streamline the public space， we use our models to give the space different faces. And where the public space， because of its generic character， has lost the involvement of the townsman， we introduce local intimacy.

One of those models is the Fire Emperor， the new appearance in the heart of Rotterdam’s city centre. The Fire Emperor will be the pivot of public life. No-one can escape from this voracious building that day and night devours anything that comes near： innocent tourists and experienced gluttons， pale potatoes and fresh coriander， tame pigeons and live squid， raunchy market stalls and exclusive restaurants， worn-out musicians and erotic services，the water of the ‘Rotte’ and the faded perfumes of waitresses. Everything is being digested， pushed along and shovelled out again， but not before it has been substantially reshaped under high pressure. Because it is the new non-stop market hall that houses in the Fire Emperor. Everybody has something to look for here， and everybody and everything is prepared to defy the heat of the kitchen in the Fire Emperor. This is where the city boils and where people travel along on the vapours of exotic dishes.

The Fire Emperor has no transparent airy hall on the inside， but is one big devouring machine， a hedonic tangle of spaces inspired on intestines. The dazzling diversity of the food on offer is reflected in the festive spirit of the interior design. It is as if the market hall itself has been fattened with interiors that have all nationalities and styles. A corny German-expressionist space is being alternated with an obscure Thai-New Age room. It is a market hall that is not embarrassed of anything and that burps nicely after having consumed yet another stylistic tour de force.

The Fire Emperor is situated on ‘het Steiger’， a spot that， before the war， was one of Rotterdam’s most mysterious places but now looks desolate and deluded. That is why we have converted this needlessly broad canal into an interior， strewn with sizzling sampans， and the famous black hole- the entrance to the canal under the ‘Grote Markt’- that was re-opened so that there is an entrance to the market hall on water level. Turning it round， you can say that the interior of the Fire Emperor is being continued in the water， so the pre-war hunger， that unfathomable gluttony of‘het Steiger’， can be satisfied. The stream of food from the improved outside market is， as it where， being diverted via the Fire Emperor to the new floating market in the canal， where， on those sampans， the secret can be tasted again.

I like to investigate topics in not a conventional way， to collect all the fragments from different points of view. I don’t know if this design-politics could be called typically Dutch but I am sure I am not the only one who feels about it this way.

Of course not all renewing projects in the Netherlands are equally successful， but I prefer （insofar as I have something to say in this matter） a failed project in which questions were asked rather than a ‘successful’ building that is neither one thing nor the other.

作品：令作人品惊：奇巨的蟒鲸天颚桥

WAR： Your projects seem to come out from a strong conceptuaI matrix that gives to them an abstract character. Which is the reIationship that they endow with the Iandscape， the naturaI environment？ ShaII we say， in your works， that the naturaI environment simpIy happens and does not influence the projects？

Maurice Nio： All projects are， contrary to what you think， very contextual. To me， context and code are the two key notions. But of course you are right if you mean that the projects do not adjust to the environment. They do not treat the context as an environment or background， but as an opponent， a player of the other team， something you have to tackle. It is the only way to build up a tension between context and code， between environment and project. Within that tension， as a user or passer-by， you could acquire an experience. Maybe that is the reason why， to you，they seem ‘abstract’.

WAR： Which are the greatest difficuIties that you have to cope in your architecturaI practice？ （deaIing with cIients， administrations，structuraI probIems， inspiration） And on the other hand， which kind of requirements shouId fuIfiII a perfect project？

Maurice Nio： That question is rather difficult to answer because this can change from one project to the other. Problems can also arise suddenly， from unexpected angles. But there are two general problems. The first problem are the developers， the developing contractors； they have become the architect’s biggest enemies. As representative of future users and clients， they serve the common denominator and nip all possibilities， all possible new programs or forms of living， in the bud. The second problem are the consultancies， the agents that as project managers have taken over the role of commissioning authority due to a lack of knowledge of the latter. These project managers’ sole aim is to realise the project in time and within the appointed budget. Which is fine of course， but it completely ignores the cultural aspects of architecture. A project manager is also not capable of giving you trust. He is not even allowed to， because it is his task to distrust the architect of fiddling， or something like that. Trust， however， is always the base for a real good project.

WAR： Facing our gIobaI age of overwheIming information， digitaI worIds， bits identities， virtuaI reaIities， which kind of roIe can Architecture stiII pIay？ Is Architecture stiII necessary？ I know that you are not a magician but which are your foresights about the future of the Architecture？

Maurice Nio： That is very simple. Architecture is important， if not essential， because it is bound to gravity and capable of embodying this union. A pixel or a vertex cannot do this. Apart from something as natural as mountains，architecture is the best medium to externalise gravity. Look at your churches and palaces： what an absorbing display of power， what a glorification of the gravity， what a voluptuous ode to the centre of the earth. I personally believe that this union between architecture and gravity is the secret of the sensual space. Everything virtual is impotent，inflationary， immune. Everything real is virile， vital， virulent. A pixel and a vertex are not sexy， not sensual. That entire so-called dominance of the virtual in the fields of sex， politics and economy is one boring， dead mess. I rather walk on the street or in a building than in cyberspace. You could say that architecture is only becoming more important nowadays， but then we have to deploy architecture very precisely as a medium， as a means， and not search for the light， the transparent， the lean， the dry and the democratic， but for the heavy， the turbid， the Rubenesque full， the lusty and the sovereign.

INTERVIEW： Maurice Nio

The Fire Emperor