探访伦佐·皮亚诺江南布衣杭州总部

孙凌波/S

探访伦佐·皮亚诺江南布衣杭州总部

孙凌波/S

1 江南布衣杭州总部鸟瞰效果图（图片来源：GOA大象设计）

江南布衣杭州总部1)是伦佐·皮亚诺在中国承接的首个建筑项目。3月26日，在伦佐·皮亚诺赴项目施工现场会议前及现场工作期间，本刊对伦佐·皮亚诺及其合伙人马克·卡罗尔（Mark Carroll），以及项目业主杭州江南布衣服饰有限公司总裁李琳、项目中方合作建筑事务所GOA大象设计总经理陆皓进行了简短的采访。

WA：您曾说过建筑是关于探索的。您的建筑通常并不带有强烈的个人风格，而是会在不同的场地或背景中寻找灵感。杭州是一个历史悠久的中国城市，拥有幽美的自然景观，同时和许多其他中国城市一样有很多新的建设。这是您的第一个中国项目，您也说过您从不会没看过地段就接受项目委托。当您来到这个城市和项目基地时得到了哪些设计上的灵感？这个项目的什么地方吸引您接受了这次委托？

伦佐·皮亚诺：我们的事务所是合伙人的形式，我们已经合作了二三十年。这个项目从业主来到我们那里、接着马克和另一些同事来到杭州，然后我过来，这样第一阶段大概有6个月的时间。在这段时间我们有很多的交流和讨论，收集各种信息，也做了些概念方案。

当你第一次来到杭州的时候，这个城市带给你的灵感可能来自于它的自然和水景。这里的自然很美。就像从我们现在坐的地方往窗外看，看那面墙上的树影，你可以体会到建筑与自然的和谐互动。我们在这里看到这种感觉，并且爱上了它。10年前，我们在旧金山的加州科学馆中曾做过绿色屋顶，所以我们知道这可以实现，这不仅是为了装饰，而是有很多实际的功能。于是在这里，我们开始设想在屋顶上种植茶树，在保护屋顶的同时，体现这种建筑与自然互动的感觉，然后就开始咨询各种顾问并努力把它实现。

通常就是这样，你的灵感来自于某些地方，然后你把它分享给整个团队。这就像打乒乓球一样，不过不是两个人打，而是30个人。一个设计的灵感来源从来都不会只有一个，而是来自很多地方。提到中国，你常常想到的可能是光与影、传统与肌理、轻盈的感觉。所以我们必须从场所和传统中学习。但同时，我们是当代建筑师，要接受生活在这个时代的种种挑战，因此，我们要用现在的方式来建造，而不是假装你还是属于过去的某个时代。你是属于未来的。

马克·卡罗尔：在屋顶种植茶树就是一个很好的关于探索的例子。我们最初的设想可能出于直觉，受到附近种植茶树的小山启发。通过与顾问和业主的交流，我们发现这是可以实现的。而且开始你可能觉得这样种不出很好的茶，但研究后我们知道这不仅可以为建筑遮阴，而且可以种出能够供饮用的茶。

伦佐·皮亚诺：这只是举出项目中的一个元素作为例子，还有很多其他的元素。你可能只是从一个很小的想法开始，然后有人说“不可能”，有人说“为什么不”。一个好的团队里应该没有人说“不可能”，所有人都说“让我们试试”。这就是我想说的，我们有非常好的团队。不仅是指我们自己，还有我们的合作方GOA、业主，以及建造方，还有来自威尼斯的混凝土施工方来帮助我们做清水混凝土。很多时候人们不喜欢学习，他们总是说“我知道怎么干”。但我们需要人们持有积极的态度，当所有人都说“让我们试试”，这就表达了一种乐观的精神，想要做事情的态度。这也是整个工作非常重要的一个元素。

WA：相比于其他一些建筑师，您更注重建造和细节。但中国建筑普遍的建造品质比欧美要差一些。您认为您可以确保这个项目的建造品质吗？如果可以，将通过什么方式来实现？

伦佐·皮亚诺：我们关注细节是因为这是我们职责的一部分。我们也会关注光、地段、社会等方面，你要知道如何创造一个让人们喜欢的场所。一个建筑师必须要把很多事情做好，这其中也包括要做一个好的建造者。不是好的建造者的建筑师，就像不弹琴的钢琴家，或者不画画的画家。这是你的本职工作，你必须要对细节感兴趣。我们要在上海开幕的展览名为“渐渐件件”（piece by piece），我们的工作就是这样一件件做出来的。

但是，建筑师只做好的细节是不够的。你必须是为了一个好的项目，出于某种好的原因，才做出好的细节。你要把很多事情集合到一起。好的细节是和美相关的，是和建筑的社会价值相关的。它从不会只关于它自己，或只为了显示你的高明。就像你写作一样，不是只有华丽的词藻就够了，它必须意味着什么，否则将没有意义。细节是整个故事的一部分。我认识的朋友中有一些很好的指挥家，在音乐会的预演中，他们能马上发现和指出哪个声部或哪个演奏者的哪个地方出了问题。这就是细节，但又不只是细节，因为音乐是一个整体。所以细节关乎整体，一个好的建筑就是由多个部件组合在一起，这就是我们关注细节的原因。

对于这个项目是否能做到好的品质，我认为是可以的。事情正在变得越来越好，而且我觉得这个国家拥有这样的精力和欲望去学习。我们在这里和很多人合作，有时他们不知道如何去做，但他们会去学习，而这就是促进整体状况发生改变的方式。我们事务所也是这样进步的，最初也不是现在这个样子，但是我们一直在学习。要学习，你就必须保持谦虚的态度，必须不断地吸收。

马克·卡罗尔：我想我们开始了一个很好的程序。因为实际上我们不可能一直跟进建造过程，所以我们会要求做样板。他们会制作建筑各个部分的部件的样板给我们看。一个部件的样板可能会做两三次，直到做好它。然后样板就成了标准，接下来只要重复制作就可以了。我们希望建筑的每个部件都被很好地制作，然后被多次重复。就像展览题目“渐渐件件”（piece by piece）：我们设计部件，然后不断重复。比如这个项目中立面上的铝百叶将会重复4000多次，绿色立面上种植植物的部件将有2000多个，都会通过这种方式来制作。因为我们想在这里用清水混凝土，这对建造品质要求很高，很困难。我们的业主非常好，他们接受了邀请意大利建造方来施工的想法。这个意大利的清水混凝土建造方曾为安藤忠雄在意大利的项目工作，也曾和我们在美国金贝尔博物馆项目中合作。他们现在正在为杭州这个项目工作。

WA： 您多次提到“学习”，我们的杂志是基于清华大学的，我也想问您一个关于建筑教育的问题。您出生于一个建造者之家。您曾说过这使您远离学术界，远离那种对年轻学生很危险的创造形式的轻易的快感。据我所知，也曾有清华大学的学生到您的事务所实习。您如何看待当今的建筑教育？您认为什么是培养青年建筑师最为合适的方式？

伦佐·皮亚诺：我可能很难去谈论对于当今建筑教育的看法，但我知道我们正在做什么。我们事务所创立了一小笔基金，这完全由我们自己出资，不是借用他人投资。大概有十七八个来自世界各地的年轻人依靠这笔钱来到我们事务所，他们来自中国、美国、非洲、南美等很多地方。他们会在巴黎或热那亚的办公室和我们一起待6个月。在意大利语中有个词叫“bottega”，意思就是“从实践中学习”，这是沿用文艺复兴时代学习雕塑或绘画的词汇。因为有些事情是要从你日复一日的经历中学习的。我们不愿意每天坐下来告诉人们应该去做什么，这些年轻人在大学里已经听得足够多了。我们请他们来参加讨论、共同工作。

建筑是关于热情的，但你无法教授热情，你只能展现热情。在教育中，你不能总是告诉人们去做这做那，你能做的只能是给他们一个样子。这些年轻人会去看、去学习和吸收。当然，要有所收获你自己必须足够好，来我们这里的学生都经过挑选，大部分都是很好的。通常在第一个月，他们有些不知所措，然后才开始学习。这就是我想我们应该做并且正在做的。当然，这并不意味着大学不好。大学的学习非常必要，但当你结束大学学习时，你需要更多。你需要现实，需要热情，有些时候还要做一些小的抗争。

还有一件事是要教给年轻人或者应该说展现给年轻人的，就是关于固执和坚持。如果没有这一点，你无法进步。因为你总是做出一些东西认为还可以，但其实远远不够。你还需要再多做一点，否则你总是无法到达中心，而只是在周边转圈。我认为这对于年轻人非常重要。你要对他们喊：“垃圾，不够好，重做！”在大学里往往不这样，但在现实生活中你不得不小心谨慎。你要不断尝试和等待，直到达到最好的那一刻，这种感觉就像到了某一时刻突然铃声响起来一样。要达到这一刻十分不易，这需要时间；也并不偶然，你要付出工作和热情。

WA: You said that architecture is about exploring. Your works are not with strong sense of personal style, but you prefer to find inspiration from specific place and context. Hangzhou is historic city with beautiful landscape and cultural heritage, and also with many new constructions like other big cities in China. You also said that you never take a new job without visiting the place. What inspiration did you find here when you first visited the site? What make you decide to take this job?

Renzo Piano: Our office is a partnership, we have worked together since 20 to 30 years ago. For this project, Mark and other colleagues came before me, and collected all the necessary information, then we talked and made some work, then I came. But during that first period, that lasted 6 months, with out team coming here and of course the client coming to Genova, we started to collect information and develop some concepts.

And when you come to Hangzhou, one of the urban inspirations is nature and water. The nature here is beautiful. through the window where we are, looking at the shadow on that wall, you realize the relationship between building and nature, they work well together. this was when we saw and we fall in love with it. We built 10 years ago in San Francisco, the California Academy of Sciences, in that building we designed a living roof. So we know it can be done. The living roof mean a lot: it's not just beautiful, it's also functional. So we started to dream about growing tea on the roof to protect the building in this project, then this dream became a reality, and we started to work with the consultant.

You know it's always like that, inspiration come from something, and then you have to express the concept to the team. It's like playing pingpang, not two people but with 30 people, so the ball goes everywhere. Inspiration comes from many places, it is never just one. It's coming from many places. And of course, more general terms China is about texture, light, shadow, and about sense of lightness as well. So you have to learn from the place and from the tradition. We are basically contemporary architects, we accept the challenge of living in our time, so we need to build in our way, I think it's wrong to pretend to belong to the past. We belong to the future.

Mark Carroll: Planting tea on the roofs is a good example of our exploration. It is something that

2 伦佐·皮亚诺和江南布衣总部模型（图片来源：GOA大象设计）

came instinctively, looking at the nearby hills with the cultivation of tea plants, then working with our consultant, and discussing with our client, the concept starts becoming a reality. At first you think maybe the tea plants won't make very good tea, but when you start working with the specialist and consultants, you realize that the tea may be useful, to help shade the building, and possibly good to drink.

Renzo Piano: This is just one element. There are so many others, just to make an example. In the beginning we start with a little idea, and then somebody says "impossible", somebody says "why not". A good team is where nobody says "impossible"; everybody says "let's try". This is what I have to say, we have a very good team, not just talking about us, but also GOA, our partners, the client, and the builder. You know somebody is coming from Venice to do the concrete. Sometimes people don't like to learn, they just say I know how to do the job. But we need the positive attitude of people, where everybody says "let's try", it's kind of an optimism, kind of desire to do things. this is also a very important element in our work.

WA: Compared with many other architects, you pay more attention to construction and details. But the construction quality in China is relatively low compared to Europe. Do you think you could ensure the construction quality of this project? If yes, howcould you ensure that?

Renzo Piano: Paying attention to detail is part of our duty. We also give a lot of attention to light, to the value of the site. We also paying a lot of attention to the social side, and how to make place for people to enjoy. An architect must be good enough in doing many things, including being a good builder. An architect that is not a good builder is like a pianist that doesn't play the piano, or like a painter that doesn't paint. So consequently you must be interested in detail. Our exhibition that will open tomorrow in Shanghai is called "piece by piece", so of course we work piece by piece.

But the architect only doing good detail is not enough. You need to do good detail in a good project, for a good reason. You need a number of things to come together. And also, the good detail is about beauty. It is about celebrating the sense of life and the sense of transparency. A good detail is never just by itself, not just to show you are clever. It's the same thing when you write, you don't write for the pleasure to make good phrase, the good phrase must mean something, or otherwise it doesn't matter. So being architect doing just good detail is quite academic in reality. We are working on details because we believe there is a connection between good detail and beauty, and civic value. The detail is just part of the story, it's like a good director, I've been a good friend to many of those people, in the concert hall that do rehearsals, and they could immediately find something that is wrong. It's detail, but it's not just detail, it's about one unite sound. So the detail is about the entirety, it's about a well-made building and the pieces coming together.

Now the second part of the question, is the quality good enough here. Yes I think it will be good. It's getting better and better. And I think this country has the energy and desire to learn. We work with people, sometimes they don't know how to do. But they learn, and this is the way the community changes. This is also the way we became a good office, we were not the same at the beginning, because you learn. You know what, to learn you need to be a bit humble. To learn you have to be able to absorb.

Mark Carroll: I think we have started a good process. Actually we cannot follow the construction process as well as we could in the Europe. therefore, we have developed a process of making mockups. So they make small pieces of the building that we review. Maybe we do that piece two or three times, until we get the right quality. then it becomes the standard, and they just repeat it. We hope that we are making a well built building with pieces that are well made, and we just repeat it many times. That's how we make our buildings, like our exhibition, as you know that it's called "piece by piece". It's a good reason we call that, because we design pieces and then we repeat them over and over. For example, our piece for the facade is made of pressed aluminum, that is repeated over 4000 times. Then we have the green facade, we design the pieces to hold the plants, that piece will be repeated maybe 2000 times. the finish material will be exposed concrete. It has to be very good, and that is difficult. This is the great value about our client, they accepted this idea. We brought a good Italian builder that has made concrete for Tadao Ando in Italy. We worked with him in the United States for the Kimbell museum, and he is here in Hangzhou now.

WA: You come from a family of builders. You said that it was good because it kept you away from academia, from the easy pleasure of creating form, which was dangerous for young students. Our magazine is based on Tsinghua University, as I know some student from Tsinghua University get the opportunity to intern in your office. What do you think about the architectural education today? What is the way you prefer for young architects training?

Renzo Piano: Well, I don't know about what to do about architectural education, I know what we can do. In our office, we created a small foundation. the foundation is made by our money, we don't ask for other people's money. With this money, about 17 to18 young people coming from all over the world, from China, America, Africa, South America, from everywhere. And they stayed with us for 6 month, in our office in Genoa and Paris. In Italian there is a word "bottega", it's a way to learn by doing. It's from the Renaissance, for the people study sculpture or painting. there are things to learn from the day by day experience. We don't like to sit down and to tell people what to do. They got enough in the university. We invite people to come to the meetings and to work in the office.

the work is about passion, but you cannot teach passion, you can only show passion. In education, you cannot keep telling people what to do, the only thing you can do is to give them example. the young students learn by watching and absorbing. Of course to do this you have to be good, and normally those students are good, they were very well selected. Typically for the first month they were lost, and then they started to learn. This is what I think we should do and we are doing. But it doesn't mean that the university is not good. You need the university. But at the end of the university, you need more. You need the reality, you need passion, and you need also a little fighting sometime.

There is one thing you have to teach young people, or I would say showing to young people, is about obstination. Without obstination, you go nowhere, because you do something fine, but it never enough. You need a bit more, without sublime obstination, you never get in the center, but you always get the periphery. I think this is also very important for the young people. You need to tell them "Garbage, it's not good enough, do again!" Sometimes in the university they don't do that. But in the real life you have to be careful. You have to wait, try and try again, and then you could reach that moment like the bell ringing. that is not easy, it takes time, but it's not casual, it's coming from work and passion.

注释：

1) 江南布衣杭州总部基地位于杭州城西天目山路，地处西湖与西溪之间，包含办公、美术馆、艺术中心、秀场及商业等功能，是一个综合性的艺术园区。 由伦佐·皮亚诺建筑工作室与GOA大象设计共同设计完成。伦佐·皮亚诺通过围合的方式在地块内创造了一个130m×95m的中心广场，与西班牙马德里主广场（Plaza Mayor）尺度相似。同时又对地块进行切割，创造出广场与城市之间的连接和渗透，这些切线限定出不同的植被、镜面水池及下沉广场等丰富的景观元素。建筑体量在首层通过内退和通透的玻璃以实现悬浮的效果，并在8-9层进行退台，屋顶作为第五立面将尽可能被茶树覆盖，朝向广场的立面被设计成特殊的生态绿化幕墙。伦佐为此反复推敲，创作了特殊的节点做法，成为项目中最为有趣的元素之一。该项目从意大利引进的清水混凝土施工团队Dottor Group，花费了将近8倍的代价，意欲打造中国乃至世界领先的清水混凝土。（项目说明文字来源：GOA大象设计）

WA：请问您出于什么原因选择邀请伦佐·皮亚诺来设计这个项目？这是他在中国的第一个项目，之前也有人曾尝试邀请他来中国做项目但未能成行，您认为他又是出于什么原因接受了这个项目的委托？

李琳：因为我也是一个建筑爱好者，很喜欢在旅行的时候去看建筑。我觉得伦佐的建筑有两种气质并存。基本上他的每个建筑都有自己的个性，但又有共同的特点——就是都还蛮优雅的。我本身也是做设计的，我觉得我们在审美上的基本趣味还是蛮符合的。比如，他很强调比例、尺度，以及各种细节。另外，他具有冒险精神。他在每个项目里都有尝试新的东西，包括我们这个项目也做很多新的尝试。他当初在说服我做一些新尝试的时候说，“我不希望过15年你来找我，说我们当初的野心不够。”我觉得这两方面能同时并存，和我们设计服装的理念也比较接近，能和他合作我还蛮庆幸的。

他自己和我讲过之前他回绝一些来自中国的项目主要有两个理由：一是因为中国人通常给的时间太短；二是有些项目过于商业，他不是特别有兴趣。他觉得我们这个项目在工期和很多方面的接受度上都比较高。另外可能就是直觉吧，我们见面沟通比较能互相理解，这也是很重要的一个原因。

WA：刚才在工地现场的会议中我也看到他对项目各个方面的品质都有比较高的要求，但目前中国建筑总体上的建造品质相对欧美要低一些。在您这个项目中如何来解决这样的差距？作为业主，从时间和成本上您能接受建筑师提出的这样比较高的要求吗？对工程的整体控制是否在您原来设想的范围之内？

李琳：中国普遍的建造品质其实要低很多。这也是我们之前几年很辛苦的原因。比如，我们一再说要找有这种高品质意识的管理团队和工人，这个要求还是蛮高的。不过我觉得中国也就是这样在进步的。我们会尽自己最大的努力，有些地方确实也是超出了我当初的设想，但我希望最后的结果是值得的。

比如像这个清水混凝土，真是一波几折。为了达到好的施工品质，最后决定50个意大利工人要在这里干1年多的时间。就清水混凝土这部分，我们付出的代价至少是原来的8倍以上。但是一次次试验看到的东西越来越好，至少将来呈现的应该是中国能看到的最好的清水混凝土吧。

伦佐在我看来是一个非常有智慧的人。他曾经说他有世界上最好的客户，我们交流时会互相问很多问题，我觉得这是一个互相了解的过程。在整个过程里，他不会向你提出要求你必须要怎么样。他曾说过“固执只有在一种时候是好的品质，就是当你懂得倾听的时候”。他第一次和我见面就曾说他是一个“倾听者”，他说，“我会倾听，我不傲慢。”但在这个过程中他不断地呈现很好的东西给你看，就像这个清水混凝土，我最大的毛病就是不能拒绝好东西。那很自然的，大家就往一个方向努力了。

这个项目原来计划是2017年底完工，但因为要引进意大利施工团队的原因往后拖了，可能至少要到2018年。不过做完这次我也不打算再做业主了，这次主要是为了自己的办公楼。

3 伦佐·皮亚诺在工地现场

WA：刚才在工地现场的会议中我也看到伦佐·皮亚诺对项目很多地方都有超出国内通常建造品质的比较高的要求，您在这个项目中既是业主，又是中方的合作建筑师，带有这样双重的身份，您也认同并且接受他提出的这些品质上的要求吗？

陆皓：和伦佐合作，就意味着在设计上肯定是以他为主导，也必须给予他完全的信任和支持。我觉得他基本上是现在建筑大师中少数或者可以说唯一一个还保留着传统手工技艺的建筑师。这不是说他在追求装饰性，而是说他把手工的优雅一直贯穿在设计里，很实际地落实到每个细部上。刚才我们工作会议上你也看到了，他在设计上永远都是追求完美的。

4 伦佐·皮亚诺与马克·卡罗尔（右）在现场样板间

在预算可能的范围内，我们当然希望做到最好。实际上商业建筑在出售时，不是我们投入越多，就能得到相应的收益。作为业主，在选择建筑师时就要想明白你要的是什么。对李总来说，她是为了实现自己的理想或者对城市建筑和空间的愿望，是邀请一个真正的建筑大师来共同打造一个伟大的项目，项目本身对她而言就是一件艺术作品。作为中方合作方，我们和他们的合作十分紧密、不分你我，为了实现所有的设计理念，我们的设计团队甚至包括施工团队，做了很多目前国内行业里前所未有的努力和尝试。

WA：作为中方合作建筑师，在整个建造过程中的具体协调沟通工作都是您这里负责，您认为要满足品质上的要求，到目前为止在建造实现过程中哪个方面是最困难的？

陆皓：清水混凝土是最困难的。因为清水混凝土施工不仅需要独特的配方，更要对从材料开始到搅拌、支模、浇筑等每一道工序精准的控制，是一个精细活。必须所有工人的水平都很高才能保证大面的效果是好的，但项目同时还有工期要求。我们现场做了好几次样板，但要整个项目能控制到这样的品质，是极其困难的。我们现在所有核心筒和大面的实墙都是由Dottor来做，大约有4万m2；所有梁板是中方总包做，大概10万m2，意大利工人对中国工人做一些技术上的指导。

5 伦佐·皮亚诺与李琳（左）在清水混凝土样板前

所以一开始我对这个决定心存疑虑，因为风险太大。 如果是一个2万m2的项目，这个决心会容易下得多。当然也有成本上的问题，我们一开始希望少做一点，但最后还是决定完全按照伦佐的设计来实现。这可能就是所谓大师的气场，敢于突破规则和界限。基于他的经验，他当然知道Dottor能把清水混凝土做得非常好，但他也未必有把握整个项目都能做到这个品质，因为项目的规模远远超过了他们以前所做过的清水混凝土工程。

其实好的建筑师和差的建筑师差别可能就是在这里，是否能引导和推动所有人去不断探索和挑战，并最终达到理想的设计效果。当然，他也需要好的业主支持，我相信他也有过不好的经验，所以他在选择项目和业主时也非常慎重。

Interview with Renzo Piano and the Project Team of JNBY Headquarters in Hangzhou

UN Lingbo